# Capsule Subsystem Holostorage EH-CN-J44-003 **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452 "2022-04-18T15:05:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/71 "2022-04-23T20:51:41Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > I don’t know much about the Amarrian God, but I would say that they have books and scriptures that teach them the way and they trust that, and the evidence in those and thus looks like faith. They have books. Those books are not evidence. Those books are written by humans. Those books over no actual, independently-verifiable _evidence_. And anything that cannot be independently verified is only _anecdote_. ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/72 "2022-04-23T20:57:14Z")
So because they are not verified, peer reviewed by independent non-biased individuals, then it’s faith? So science is peer reviewed by other scientists, Theological sources would be peer reviewed by? Other theolgians who could verify the accuracy of the scriptures and thus call it trust. I’m not defending the Amarrian faith. I really don’t care about it. I don’t think its some sort of opiate either. What I do care about, is its use to conveniently justify slavery. And worse, the reclaiming. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/73 "2022-04-23T21:06:01Z")
> [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > So science is peer reviewed by other scientists, Science is peer reviews by other scientists… _by trying to disprove the results_. That’s important. The results _have_ to be something that can be tested. If you can’t test it, then it’s meaningless conjecture, and there’s no point investing belief into it. > [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](#): > > Theological sources would be peer reviewed by? > > Other theolgians who could verify the accuracy of the scriptures and thus call it trust. How do you verify the accuracy of scriptures? How do you _verify_ that a non-physical entity conjured all of existence out of nothing? How do you verify that the early Emperors were inspired by this non-physical entity who leaves no physical trace of their presence, and that those Emperors weren’t simply competent military and administrative leaders who used personal charisma and religious dogma to keep their population unified while they used that population to expand their personal power through conquest? How does a theologian _verify_ the immaterial? ---
**Author:** ![Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ax_l_thorne/32/412835_2.png) [@Ax\_l\_Thorne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ax_l_Thorne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2022, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/74 "2022-04-23T21:21:34Z")
Very good points. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2022, 9:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/76 "2022-04-27T09:37:48Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > It is unfortunate that you have chosen to retreat from the conversation. At the risk of speaking for Elsebeth (which I do not), I _suspect_ she is not so much _retreating_ as she is simply opting not to personally go to war with someone who adamantly refuses to learn from her errors. That whole diplomat thing, the fact that making up for the rampant inadequacies of the Amarr education system isn’t her job, LUMEN’s effectively a bluetral, yadda yadda… ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2022, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/77 "2022-04-27T10:38:13Z")
Indeed. There are many words worth a fatal duel in the cluster, but way more situations where a duel is not an appropriate option. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2022, 4:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/78 "2022-04-28T04:29:09Z")
> [@Erikk\_Albosa](#): > > What the ■■■■ is this?! How has it been two years for us to find this ■■■■ out?! How many freed brothers and sisters have died under this false Amarr banner? Any Matari with an ounce of self respect still flying alongside these ■■■■stains should drop their association as soon as possible. If you don’t, then you’re not one of us and the blood of Skarkon and Krirald is on your hands. > > Screw your EDENCOM and Screw your Empress. And so ■■■■ing WHAT? Amarr is a Honorable and Lawful Empire, fighting and dying for the Empire is a great Honor, they represent values of Modern Civilization, Law and Order. It’s not like a disgrace fighting for gallentean decadence! ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 6:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/79 "2022-05-04T06:58:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > For example, the more the State gets battered by the Trigs—while the Empire had relatively little trouble with them—then the more the State is put into a position of relying on their Khanid partners, and through them, the Empire, for any short-term defensive needs that might arise in emergencies. We may be willing to sell our products to foreign powers, but that does not mean that we depend on imports from our trade partners to stay afloat. The Megacorporations have always put a high emphasis on autarchy in the field of production and resource extraction in order to avoid such dependencies. Kaalakiota is the most well-known example of this, but the others do it too. > [@Clementine\_Lafleur](#): > > Namely allowing their closes ally to suffer such awful losses. I can’t hear you over all that [hypocrisy](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/pochven-must-burn/317062). > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > That the vision of unity and integration between all of the cluster’s peoples is not necessarily one shared by all nations today is a critique that I am forced to reluctantly accept You were surprised to learn that a people that sacrificed their homeworld and subjected themselves to over a century of total war to avoid integration by a foreign power, in order to preserve their culture, would be reluctant to unite and integrate with other peoples? > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > though naturally my faith leads me to firmly believe that this can and will change with time Co-operation resulted in roughly four out of five invaded Caldari systems falling to the invaders. The ability of CONCORD and EDENCOM to contribute to the security of our people has been grossly over-estimated. That is not a mistake that ought to be repeated. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > There are unfortunately, however, a couple of elements here where I too must respectfully disagree with. First and foremost, I fear that I have to challenge your use of past tense to refer to EDENCOM and its function. EDENCOM _is today_ an defense organization working to counter a particular threat _that still exists in this present time_. In so far as it _performs_ its function, it _is_ admirable. If it is so admirable, then it would have reverse-engineered the Stellar Transmuter that was captured in the Arshat system so that we can finally begin to work on returning the 27 stolen systems to the fold, alongside undoing the bio-adaptations their inhabitants were forced to undergo. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > And to be clear, there are elite navy forces from all Empires, State included, fighting and dying _every single day_ against the Collective in Pochven for that very reason. Perhaps many of us don’t see them, because we’re focused on valid conflicts elsewhere against different enemies, but their families and loved ones do. So too do those of the citizens on the stolen worlds being subjected to unspeakable horrors against their will. And if the Arshat transmuter had been reverse-engineered to give the four major powers the tools to undo it’s effects, in order to return the systems to their normal state, those offensives might even have a point. As it stands they have no identifiable objective and continue to be a morbid waste of manpower and materiel. The closest thing -we- have had to an objective since the invasions ceased was the destruction of all infrastructure belonging to traitor capsuleers. To my knowledge we have simply run out of viable targets to strike. This is something which I have pointed out before, only to be accused of “extremely limited strategic thinking”. I don’t know who decided that chucking squadron after squadron through a wormhole without a plan was a suitable way to continue the war but if that is what strategic brilliance looks like I will wear the insult with pride. > [@Remilia\_Malitia](#): > > It is imperative that we reconsider our stance, hopefully seeking out a peaceful resolution to this conflict. They will not be able to hide from us forever. The conflict will be resolved when the last Triglavian holdouts have been glassed into oblivion. > [@Arrendis](#): > > organized according to _Caldari Navy_ doctrines and run by _Caldari Navy_ officers. Not a doctrine I ever saw whilst I served three years as an ADC to a WC in the CN. I do not know why they refitted those ships, or why they ignored my constant pleas to phase out all launcher hulls with the conventional turret hulls, but the only force that was adequately employing anything resembling CN doctrines was EDI, and it took a long time before all doctrines within it were phased out in favour of Nagas, Feroxes and Ospreys. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 7:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/80 "2022-05-04T07:40:11Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > We may be willing to sell our products to foreign powers, but that does not mean that we depend on imports from our trade partners to stay afloat. The Megacorporations have always put a high emphasis on autarchy in the field of production and resource extraction in order to avoid such dependencies. Sure, but that doesn’t mean that conspiracy theories (which is what I was demonstrating an example of) won’t paint the _Amarr_ as having that intention. I don’t think it’s any real stretch to say that the Amarr understand the Caldari about as poorly as they understand any _other_ isolationist group that wants them to stay the hell out of their business. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Co-operation resulted in roughly four out of five invaded Caldari systems falling to the invaders. Did it? Because one of the big points being made is that there _wasn’t_ meaningful cooperation. The assets defending the State… were _State_ assets, chosen by the State for that job. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > That is not a mistake that ought to be repeated. Trusting Caldari officers to run Caldari fleets full of Caldari ships to defend the State? I think the problem really lies more in the refusal of the Caldari assets in question to adapt to the particulars of the engagement. I mean, I watched whole formations of Blackbirds jam _one_ Leshak in a fleet, more than once. That made every last one of them useless, because the ship being jammed… could still target all of them, just like the ones _not_ being jammed. EDENCOM certainly wasn’t captaining those vessels. They weren’t leading those fleets. Those were Caldari officers, using Caldari technology fitted to Caldari ships… in basically the _worst_ way possible. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Not a doctrine I ever saw whilst I served three years as an ADC to a WC in the CN. And you were privy to the loadouts of every third- and fourth-string garrison force in the State? > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > why they ignored my constant pleas to phase out all launcher hulls with the conventional turret hulls, but the only force that was adequately employing anything resembling CN doctrines So the Osprey Navy Issue isn’t used in a Caldari Navy doctrine? Huh. Makes you wonder why the Navy’d slather its name all over them… > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > it took a long time before all doctrines within it were phased out in favour of Nagas, Feroxes and Ospreys. Eh, artillery using Titanium Sabot more closely matches the resist holes on Trig ships. EDI should’ve ditched the Caldari hulls entirely in favor of arty boats. Also, Basilisks, please. Ospreys… ugh. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > If it is so admirable, then it would have reverse-engineered the Stellar Transmuter that was captured in the Arshat system How do you know they _haven’t_? Because they haven’t told _us_? It’s CONCORD. They don’t tell us _anything_ if they don’t have to. At this point, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out the only thing keeping them from calling for a full-scale reconquista is that they can’t get the gates working again. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2022, 11:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/81 "2022-05-04T11:15:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out the only thing keeping them from calling for a full-scale reconquista is that they can’t get the gates working again. Or to keep fickle and capricious capsuleers from screwing it up until it’s ready. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 9:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/83 "2022-05-06T09:02:11Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Sure, but that doesn’t mean that conspiracy theories (which is what I was demonstrating an example of) won’t paint the _Amarr_ as having that intention. I don’t think it’s any real stretch to say that the Amarr understand the Caldari about as poorly as they understand any _other_ isolationist group that wants them to stay the hell out of their business. Thing is that people who aren’t expected to travel abroad generally never learn about other people’s cultures. For example, I learned the language most commonly spoken in each of the CONCORD signatories, but when I entered Imperial space for the first time, the only context I was given was that a Holder was like a hereditary executive. Consequently it does not surprise me at all to learn that a lot of people who might never meet someone from another culture might assume that their culture is universal. And then, when they suddenly end up being Capsuleers and connecting to the Summit, this results in culture shock. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Did it? Because one of the big points being made is that there _wasn’t_ meaningful cooperation. The assets defending the State… were _State_ assets, chosen by the State for that job. It didn’t look like a CN formation, it didn’t act like a CN formation, so my personal guess at this point is that EC just asked for something that sounded right, and they were given those exact things to the letter under the assumption that they knew what they were doing. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Trusting Caldari officers to run Caldari fleets full of Caldari ships to defend the State? I think the problem really lies more in the refusal of the Caldari assets in question to adapt to the particulars of the engagement. I mean, I watched whole formations of Blackbirds jam _one_ Leshak in a fleet, more than once. That made every last one of them useless, because the ship being jammed… could still target all of them, just like the ones _not_ being jammed. > > EDENCOM certainly wasn’t captaining those vessels. They weren’t leading those fleets. Those were Caldari officers, using Caldari technology fitted to Caldari ships… in basically the _worst_ way possible. Orders are orders. Apparently also when they come from an EDENCOM officer who does not know what electronic countermeasures are. Under normal circumstances, once the strengths and weaknesses of an enemy formation become known, this is communicated up the chain and the next wave to go into the grinder will be hard countering the enemy. The fact that this did not occur during the invasions is one off the warning signs that tells me that something abnormal was happening. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And you were privy to the loadouts of every third- and fourth-string garrison force in the State? I’m a bit of a gossip girl, but not to the extent that I would discuss the loadouts of actively serving formations, or any other specifics. What I can say is that what I saw during the invasions was abnormal to the extreme, and had anything resembling that occurred during regular CN deployments the person responsible would take the tea. > [@Arrendis](#): > > So the Osprey Navy Issue isn’t used in a Caldari Navy doctrine? Huh. Makes you wonder why the Navy’d slather its name all over them… Not saying it isn’t, I’m saying that my personal recommendation based on what I was seeing was to bring in the turret boats, fix the resist holes, and put whoever was coordinating the jams in front of a firing squad. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Eh, artillery using Titanium Sabot more closely matches the resist holes on Trig ships. EDI should’ve ditched the Caldari hulls entirely in favor of arty boats. Also, Basilisks, please. Ospreys… ugh. Unfortunately no other Attack Battlecruiser was able to throw as much pain down range at the distances we needed them to operate at in order to supercede the Naga. People who could fly a Basilisk were welcome to bring one, but the reality is that the overwhelming majority of the bodies in fleet were new capsuleers, industrialists and haulers who suddenly got forced to defend their homes. Consequently the entry level was meta-fitted tech 1 cruisers, simply because that was what they could get into in a reasonable timeframe. > [@Arrendis](#): > > How do you know they _haven’t_? Because they haven’t told _us_? It’s CONCORD. They don’t tell us _anything_ if they don’t have to. At this point, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out the only thing keeping them from calling for a full-scale reconquista is that they can’t get the gates working again. I am acting under the assumption that they are people of moderate intelligence who want the four empires to contribute when the time comes. So if they want us to fleet up they’re gonna have to at least let us know that it’s go time. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I don’t believe I mentioned _surprise_ anywhere, ma’am. I mentioned being forced to reluctantly accept that some of our honorable friends in the State possess that reluctance. I make no attempt to disguise the fact that I am unapologetically supportive of the deepening of international cooperation, and that my absolute faith in the Reclaiming likely plays a large part why I see those endeavours in such a positive light. I nevertheless accept that such a perspective does make it hard for me to intuitively grasp the scepticism that Mr. Suzaku pointed out, and thus I appreciated his doing so. Firstly, co-operation requires the pros to outweigh the cons. Right now EDENCOM’s stance seems to be “Sorry about those sixteen systems. We have no idea how to get them back. Give us money.” That is not going to get them far. Secondly, binding decisions on the inter-national level are made by the Chief Executive Panel and I highly doubt that they listen to either Suzaku-haan or myself. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Out of curiosity, Miss Tereven, what evidence do you have that the State would have fared better _without_ participating in the EDENCOM initiative? I was there. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > It seems rather intuitive to me that the combined resources of the State, plus the Empire, plus the Federation, plus the Republic administering the Rebel Provinces would manage better than the resources of the State alone. Even under EDENCOM combined operations did not take place. I’d have preferred it if the regular chain of command was intact. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Is there something I’m missing that proves that the State would have performed better with less resource and intelligence sharing at its disposal? The outcome of the war. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > The notion that the State would have handled the invasions better acting purely by itself seems to be built on a conjecture I can’t really say that I understand the basis of. I’ve seen enough Caldari assets wasted in EDENCOM hands to think otherwise. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Why are the successful reverse-engineering the Stellar Transmuter and reversing of bio-adaptations, technologies completely unbeknownst to us until only a couple of years ago, considered the be-all-end-all litmus tests for EDENCOM’s admirability? That seems like a rather arbitrary place to draw the line. Naturally, they would be very significant and welcome advancements in our efforts to reclaim the stolen systems, but the implication that anything short of that does not deserve respect or admiration frankly baffles me. It’d be like saying that the efforts of capsuleer militias engaged in the CEMWPA conflicts were not admirable unless they were able to directly result in the permanent, uncontestable CONCORD recognition of system sovereignty, denying the importance of the things that CEMWPA militias _are_ able to affect such as space superiority. In many ways, I feel my previous [response](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/63) to Mr Suzaku’s criticisms is once again relevant here. It is a cost versus benefit analysis. In the case of a militia capsuleer, that is someone able to take and hold a system with nothing but crewless frigates. Conversely, in the case of EDENCOM formations being sent into Pochven, those are baseliner ships crewed by people with families, being sent somewhere where they can in no way undo the damage the original Triglavian invasions inflicted upon the cluster. More casualties, less results. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I find it rather perplexing how openly loyalist capsuleers appear to publicly underestimate the intelligence of their own leaders. On the contrary, my leaders have openly voiced their displeasure over EDENCOM’s performance, and for me the continued operations in Pochven are a prime example of why they are right. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Miss Terevan That is not how my family’s name is written. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > do you _really_ believe that the greatest military minds in the State would be committing forces to EDENCOM initiatives if they had literally no objectives or value to them? My current guess is that this is due to external political pressure. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Just because they don’t share the details of what their goals are publicly, in places where Triglavian operatives or sympathisers would be listening, does not mean that they have no reasoning behind their operations. Reasoning is great, but one should occasionally look at the results. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Prohibiting the Collective from having the opportunity to rebuild its invasion forces by forcing it to commit a constant stream of forces and other resource to Pochven defense efforts. The Collective is based in those systems and will be able to salvage all wrecks and collect all escape pods after the engagements. They will also be able to throw in ships of any weight class whilst our forces are constrained by the nature of the wormhole they use to affect entry. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Collecting further data on Triglavian combat tactics, flight patterns, and response times in preparation for further, larger scale defensive or offensive engagements. For -this- long? > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Assisting resistance movements on the stolen worlds through the contesting of space superiority. They could just run in weapons and supplies with a Crane and it’d help them more than new wrecks in orbit. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Ensuring the battle-readiness of EDENCOM forces, military co-ordination, and technological developments in preparation for further, larger scale defensive or offensive engagements. I do not believe that the constant casualties affect the forces seconded to EDENCOM in a positive way. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > If any closed-door diplomacy is in-fact taking place, ensuring that the Collective understands that EDENCOM counter-raids will remain a very persitant thorn in the Collective’s side in Pochven until such deals are struck and our demands met. Peace talks in any form would be betraying the people who sacrificed their lives to protect our homes. What ought to happen is collecting our strength, not expending it, and waiting until we have a way to push in there, stay there, and retake the systems. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I’d argue that the leaders of our nations are far more well-placed to make that judgement call. Yes, that is why they are in charge. No one went into this discussion under the assumption that their statements would make any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Remilia\_Malitia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remilia_malitia/32/394766_2.png) [@Remilia\_Malitia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remilia_Malitia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 9:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/84 "2022-05-06T09:17:55Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > I find it rather perplexing how openly loyalist capsuleers appear to publicly underestimate the intelligence of their own leaders. Miss Terevan, do you _really_ believe that the greatest military minds in the State would be committing forces to EDENCOM initiatives if they had literally no objectives or value to them? > [@Remilia\_Malitia](#): > > There is a reason the Megacorporations are blaming EDENCOM and there is a reason that our Honorable Chairman, who _personally_ fought against the Triglavians, saw fit to instruct our Inner Circle delegation to vote for reducing EDENCOM’s funding once already. I trust Chairman Saraki-haan to do what is right for the Caldari people. The Empire seems to be following too. Did you not pull all regular troops from EDENCOM, after all? Seconded reserves instead? ---
**Author:** ![Henrik\_Suzaku](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/henrik_suzaku/32/358060_2.png) [@Henrik\_Suzaku](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Henrik_Suzaku)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 4:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/86 "2022-05-07T04:38:09Z")
I would like to quickly point out that we do see the carnage of battle and ‘new wrecks in orbit’, while any claims concerning ‘data collection’ or any other subtle purpose to EDENCOM ops are purely speculative. That is not to say there isn’t a greater game being played, but it is one thing to give an ally the benefit of the doubt and another to invent possibilities to shut down criticism. There must be an investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Remilia\_Malitia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remilia_malitia/32/394766_2.png) [@Remilia\_Malitia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remilia_Malitia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 4:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/87 "2022-05-07T04:53:53Z")
I do not see how this is a point of debate at all. I don’t think anyone in this thread has demanded the complete dismantlement of EDENCOM as an institution just yet. All that was requested was that a thorough investigation be conducted on the current and historic allocation of funding and the impartiality of its leadership. The fact that _this_ is seen as something unreasonable, in light of everything, is nothing if not a little suspect on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/88 "2022-05-08T13:06:35Z")
> [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > A fact that I am indeed aware of. I remain incredibly grateful to both yourself and to all those capsuleers that served against the Collective during the invasions while I myself was, frustratingly, still going through my capsuleer training. However, I’m not entirely sure I understand how that answers the question that was asked. Similarly: When I said “I was there”, I did not mean it as in “I fought for EDENCOM and you should take my word for it”. What I meant was “I was on grid with the EDENCOM units defending Caldari systems and the way I saw them operate differs in extremis from the way Caldari Navy formations operated during my time in the Caldari Navy”. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Snappy-sounding one-liners, much like pointing out innocuous typing mistakes, don’t tend to make for particularly strong counter-arguments, Miss Terev_e_n. Firstly, It would be an innocuous typing mistake if it happened once. After two years of my family name being miss-spelled by a multitude of people, I figured that it was prudent to rectify the matter. Secondly, I do not see a reason to use more words than necessary. I believe that the Caldari Navy would have handled the defence better without EDENCOM interference, because of what I saw those units do under EDENCOM guidance. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Sure. It’s been… what? A couple of years? That’s practically nothing in the grand scheme of things - especially when we’re talking about an enemy we didn’t even know existed until very recently. I do not appreciate my compatriots being thrown into a pointless meatgrinder for a couple of years, without having managed to re-take a single system in Pochven. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > And as you no doubt are aware, military forces don’t tend to stick to just one static set of tactics or operational paradigms That is what EDENCOM has been doing since all of this began. That is why we began deploying Corporate Security Forces to defend our systems instead. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Cloaks only go so far, ma’am, else I rather suspect Republic forces would have made far more use of them to subvert Amarrian interests in the core worlds by now. In fact the security of just about every world in New Eden would be significantly undermined if a single cloak-fitted blockade runner was all it took to smuggle weapons or people to or from them. One “neutral” Capsuleer with a covert ops cloak is literally all it takes to run guns from one place to another without being seen. That statement holds as true for highsec as it does for any other place. > [@Amicia\_Cora](#): > > Alas, as I said, we don’t know exactly what each and every EDENCOM mission in Pochven is being executed in support of, but assuming that they merely generate ‘new wrecks in orbit’ seems rather flippant to me. Not as flippant as the continued demands for funding and manpower, contrasted to the lack of clarification about current operational goals and the absence of results. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2022, 2:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/89 "2022-05-09T02:34:49Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > It didn’t look like a CN formation, it didn’t act like a CN formation, so my personal guess at this point is that EC just asked for something that sounded right, and they were given those exact things to the letter under the assumption that they knew what they were doing. So you believe the State wasted time and resources refitting ships to a specification that would have driven a CN officer to ritual suicide, using weapons and loadouts the crews would not be trained on, and so redoubling the likelihood of failure… all without raising that issue. You also believe that that is a _simpler_ assumption than 'these were massively outdated assets that might have been previously tasked with guarding so-called ‘Khaldari’ assets in Khanid space, and the Megas took the opportunity to rid themselves of obsolete, disposable trash? I sort of have to point that that kind of mismanagement _also_ doesn’t sound terribly Caldari… and that even if you’re right, the _failure_ of upper-echelon CN officers to raise their concerns about the performance of such refitted vessels, and the almost built-in pointless loss of Caldari Navy crew and officers attempting to use systems they were not trained on, should be driving large numbers of those upper-echelon officers to the tea, anyway. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > It didn’t look like a CN formation, it didn’t act like a CN formation And, again, you’re familiar with _every_ loadout the Navy uses in all areas of space? I’m not asking for State secrets, I’m not asking you to _list_ them… we already _know_ what these ships had. I’m asking you if you are willing to swear that you are personally familiar with every single composition and loadout the entire Caldari Navy uses in every role and arena. For comparison: In close to a decade as the fitting director of Goonswarm, I wasn’t familiar with every loadout Goonswarm used in every role and every region. A number of special-operations SIGs use their own, non-standard configurations. For example: Miniluv. Other groups like Whelp Squad also use their own internal doctrines. And GSF is orders of magnitude smaller than the Caldari Navy, with no-where near the variety or complexity of roles needing to be filled. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Orders are orders. Apparently also when they come from an EDENCOM officer who does not know what electronic countermeasures are. For the record, I _have_ flown against Caldari Navy forces in the past, and not only on my own. The proclivity of Caldari Navy Blackbirds and Griffins to jam a _single_ target _en masse_ out of a group is well-established, with successive waves of Navy forces consistently failing to adapt their EWAR options in any way toward countering their opponents. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Not saying it isn’t Well, except for how you’re insisting that the missile ships used were not any doctrine you’ve ever seen in 3 whole years. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > I am acting under the assumption that they are people of moderate intelligence who want the four empires to contribute when the time comes. We are not the empires. CONCORD can, and _does_ communicate with the empires without ever telling us anything. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Right now EDENCOM’s stance seems to be “Sorry about those sixteen systems. We have no idea how to get them back. Give us money.” Right now EDENCOM’s stance seems to be “We are doing what the Inner Circle, comprised of representatives from all four empires including the State, are telling us to do.” Surely, if EDENCOM were in some way acting out against the interests of the State’s representative, that representative is in a position to raise hell over the issue, no? Considering any 1 of the 5 can bring things to a crashing halt on literally every issue before CONCORD? > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > The outcome of the war. Does not, in fact, prove that the State would have performed better on its own. The State has actually _shown_ no such improved performance. Nor has the State produced any plan of their own to retake the lost systems… or even _access_ them in significant numbers. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > I’ve seen enough Caldari assets wasted in EDENCOM hands to think otherwise. Well, if we take your construction of things, you’ve seen purpose-built ships sent by the State over to EDENCOM in configurations that do not play to their strengths, with crews who would have had no time to learn the new systems, and yet the _State_ personnel don’t seem to have raised any objections. Nor have any _actual_ current Caldari Navy officers raised any issues or made any public statements to the effect of ‘if you’d let us use _our_ doctrines, it would’ve been fine!’ Which, y’know, I think they’d likely do… especially since the Fed didn’t seem to have much issue, and they don’t even have any real EWAR options. Pointing a ship that isn’t running away is useless. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > in the case of EDENCOM formations being sent into Pochven, those are baseliner ships crewed by people with families Shame none of the Navy brass thought to be concerned about those baseliners and their families when they sent half-trained crews to EDENCOM without any objection, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 12:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/90 "2022-05-10T00:41:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So you believe the State wasted time and resources refitting ships to a specification that would have driven a CN officer to ritual suicide, using weapons and loadouts the crews would not be trained on, and so redoubling the likelihood of failure… all without raising that issue. I think it was an EDENCOM decision. > [@Arrendis](#): > > ‘Khaldari’ That is not a thing. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And, again, you’re familiar with _every_ loadout the Navy uses in all areas of space? > > I’m not asking for State secrets, I’m not asking you to _list_ them… we already _know_ what these ships had. I’m asking you if you are willing to swear that you are personally familiar with every single composition and loadout the entire Caldari Navy uses in every role and arena. > > For comparison: In close to a decade as the fitting director of Goonswarm, I wasn’t familiar with every loadout Goonswarm used in every role and every region. A number of special-operations SIGs use their own, non-standard configurations. For example: Miniluv. Other groups like Whelp Squad also use their own internal doctrines. And GSF is orders of magnitude smaller than the Caldari Navy, with no-where near the variety or complexity of roles needing to be filled. I can not speak about this and you should not speak about such things related to entities you supported either. > [@Arrendis](#): > > For the record, I _have_ flown against Caldari Navy forces in the past, and not only on my own. The proclivity of Caldari Navy Blackbirds and Griffins to jam a _single_ target _en masse_ out of a group is well-established, with successive waves of Navy forces consistently failing to adapt their EWAR options in any way toward countering their opponents. Nonsense that would be silly. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, except for how you’re insisting that the missile ships used were not any doctrine you’ve ever seen in 3 whole years. I have indeed not seen them use torpedoes or cruise missiles against AB-fit Frigates or Destroyers during my three years in the navy, because it would be an ineffective waste of munitions. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Shame none of the Navy brass thought to be concerned about those baseliners and their families when they sent half-trained crews to EDENCOM without any objection, huh? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 2:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/91 "2022-05-10T02:07:02Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > That is not a thing. And yet, it _is_ a thing in the vernacular of many Caldari living and working in facilities in Khanid space—including a number of Caldari capsuleers with ties to the Empire. Acknowledging that the terminology is not in any way officially recognized is why it was put in single-quotes. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > I think it was an EDENCOM decision. Right. So EDENCOM insisted that the State, _alone_ among the Signatories, needed to refit their ships in ways the ships themselves were ill-suited for, and into conditions their crews were not trained to operate. They insisted upon this time-consuming measure _despite_ the EDENCOM muster needing the get organized and operational absolutely ASAP? And the State made no objections to this? > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Yes. Gotta say, those last two assertions _really_ don’t establish a picture of even _minimal_ competence on the part of the Caldari Navy’s upper echelon officer corps. So, congratulations on your assertion that the Caldari Navy is too incompetent to even recognize a colossal point of failure in the defense of the State, and raise alarms about it _before_ the failure actually occurs. Or, for that matter, even competent enough to decide to reinforce the endangered systems with their own doctrinaire forces _after_ the point of failure’s been exposed, in an attempt to shore up defenses. But hey, EDENCOM’s got it, right? I mean, I could see being surprised the first time, confident EDENCOM will of course recover and adapt the second… but the third? The fourth? The _ninth_ time it happens? Once it was obvious that _whoever_ was at fault, EDENCOM’s forces clearly couldn’t do the job on their own? To just sit back and do **nothing** to protect the State? Deflect the blame for the doctrines all you like, the Caldari Navy still sat on their asses and _let it happen_. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > I can not speak about this and you should not speak about such things related to entities you supported either. I’ll speak about any damned thing I want. No doctrine’s specifics remain secret past the first time ships are lost, and we all know it. If there are doctrines that have not suffered losses, and so remain completely OPSEC, then I am more than capable of preserving that without ever letting you or anyone else know that I am doing so, or that such doctrines exist. Moreover, I’m capable of doing it _without_ issuing blanket denials of the existence of those doctrines. > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > Nonsense that would be silly. And yet, it’s happened. And continues to happen. Ask anyone who regularly runs security missions for the Fed. ---
**Author:** ![Miran\_Tereven](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/miran_tereven/32/383453_2.png) [@Miran\_Tereven](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Miran_Tereven)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/92 "2022-05-10T03:32:46Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > not in any way officially recognized As long as this detail is clear to all observers. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Gotta say, those last two assertions _really_ don’t establish a picture of even _minimal_ competence on the part of the Caldari Navy’s upper echelon officer corps. So, congratulations on your assertion that the Caldari Navy is too incompetent to even recognize a colossal point of failure in the defense of the State, and raise alarms about it _before_ the failure actually occurs. > > Or, for that matter, even competent enough to decide to reinforce the endangered systems with their own doctrinaire forces _after_ the point of failure’s been exposed, in an attempt to shore up defenses. But hey, EDENCOM’s got it, right? > > I mean, I could see being surprised the first time, confident EDENCOM will of course recover and adapt the second… but the third? The fourth? The _ninth_ time it happens? Once it was obvious that _whoever_ was at fault, EDENCOM’s forces clearly couldn’t do the job on their own? > > To just sit back and do **nothing** to protect the State? Deflect the blame for the doctrines all you like, the Caldari Navy still sat on their asses and _let it happen_. The EDENCOM formations were replaced with CSF formations, commanded by CSF officers, and the losses stopped, but I agree that this decision could and should have been taken sooner. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I’ll speak about any damned thing I want. No doctrine’s specifics remain secret past the first time ships are lost, and we all know it. If there are doctrines that have not suffered losses, and so remain completely OPSEC, then I am more than capable of preserving that without ever letting you or anyone else know that I am doing so, or that such doctrines exist. Moreover, I’m capable of doing it _without_ issuing blanket denials of the existence of those doctrines. Unfortunately not everyone is immune to litigation. I refuse to discuss anything I saw during my time in the navy in detail on a public board. What I can say without crossing details is that what I saw EDENCOM units in Caldari systems do was not representative for the normal performance of that service branch. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 4:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452/93 "2022-05-10T04:41:19Z")
> [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > and the losses stopped You mean when the active phase of the invasion ended? > [@Miran\_Tereven](#): > > What I can say without crossing details is that what I saw EDENCOM units in Caldari systems do was not representative for the normal performance of that service branch. Nobody’s claiming it’s a _typical_ doctrine. I’m simply saying that unless you are claiming to be directly familiar with all doctrine loadouts used by every single part of the Caldari Navy under all circumstances and for all missions, you cannot authoritatively state that those ships—and **only** the State-provided ships—were refitted to non-doctrinaire specifications. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/capsule-subsystem-holostorage-eh-cn-j44-003/358452.md?page=5)