# \[CAVTT\] The Test of Faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Tags:** roleplay, amarr\ **Created:** [October 1, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415 "2019-10-01T20:47:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nicoletta\_Mithra](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicoletta_mithra/32/378065_2.png) [@Nicoletta\_Mithra](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicoletta_Mithra)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/121 "2019-10-09T01:10:21Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Yup. Totally putting words in your mouth by quoting your exact words. Well, I didn’t say you were putting words in _my_ mouth. QED. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/122 "2019-10-09T01:13:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > One person acting in bad faith while the rest take them at their word is all it takes to start things. Do you really think we don’t have people in the TC whose entire job is specifically to make sure that important discussions avoid the _obvious_ breakdown that you are talking about here? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/123 "2019-10-09T01:13:51Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Do you really think we don’t have people in the TC whose entire job is specifically to make sure that important discussions avoid the _obvious_ breakdown that you are talking about here? Having seen no evidence of them? Yes, I’m inclined to think that. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/124 "2019-10-09T01:24:04Z")
You are taking a report of heavy involvement by the heirs and spinning that into the TC doing whatever said heirs asked against their better wisdom. The latter doesn’t follow from the former. It is also notable that the closest you can find to dissension is from the Ardishapur family, and not from the TC itself. If the heirs hadn’t been involved they wouldn’t have been doing their jobs in what was undoubtedly a moment of grave peril for the Empire. And yes, Amarr is a society of submission and silence. That is right and proper. But the _Theology Council_ in particular does not operate under the same rules as I personally do and as you were supposed to have done. Their job, their very mode of submission, is to actively question the scriptural validity of proposals put before them. If they are just rubber stamping things, they are not doing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/125 "2019-10-09T01:37:38Z")
Have you seen _anything at all_ about the internal workings of the council? It’s a huge and well funded organization that has been dealing with the problems of scriptural complexity, alternate versions, and of scriptural conflicts for over a thousand years. And like all Amarr organizations, it is hierarchical, which means that there are plenty of support staff. If someone cites scriptural evidence, you can bet that an army of staff will be immediately tracking down that particular footnote to make sure it is valid. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 1:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/126 "2019-10-09T01:54:26Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > Have you seen _anything at all_ about the internal workings of the council? Nope. And while I’d like to believe it’s a well-run organization, what we _have_ seen is things like Derp-Duke ArgleBargle get put on the Council. Which, you know, doesn’t inspire confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/127 "2019-10-09T03:05:24Z")
His getting appointed to the Council was a political decision, presumably on the part of Khanid. His ability to actually do anything on the council requires compliance from rest of Council. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/128 "2019-10-09T03:55:25Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > His getting appointed to the Council was a political decision Which demonstrates right off that the system’s fatally flawed: political appointments have no place in assembling a panel of impartial experts. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/129 "2019-10-09T06:32:23Z")
It should be noted that the individual in question is not part of the theological decsion-making body, but is a Paladin Deacon of the Orders Militant. He seems to be an enforcer, not a lawmaker or judge. ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/130 "2019-10-09T06:34:35Z")
The problem is that he’s not fit to be a custodian. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 6:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/131 "2019-10-09T06:59:10Z")
Holders, and especially Heirs, are exceedingly important religious figures in their own right. As such, their having a voice on the council is pretty vital to the functioning of Amarr as a cohesive religious society. They just should not be the only voices on the council. I would also point out that almost every legal body of which I have heard includes politically appointed members. The most obvious of which would be the Gallente Supreme Court, where the justices are appointed and confirmed by elected officials through a political process. And as Aldrith correctly points out, the Theology Council has many different jobs and specialties. Just being a part of the Theology Council does not mean that the person is being trusted to be an impartial decision maker. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/132 "2019-10-09T15:26:15Z")
In a society as militaritarily authoritarian as the Empire is, Aldrith, I am shocked that _you_, of all people, don’t grasp a simple idea: The guys with the guns _are_ the decision-makers. Everyone else only gets a say until someone gets annoyed enough to start killing people for effect. Chakaid _started_ by killing for effect—killing _millions_. Then he moved right into killing for effect on other peoples’ planets. This past year has been one long string of ‘oh, do you think _you_ can’t be touched? Hang on, let me kill Holders in Dam Torsad. Let me attack the capital world of another nation’. Do either of you think _anyone_ on the Theology Council isn’t _acutely_ aware of the barrel pressed into their temple that he represents? > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I would also point out that almost every legal body of which I have heard includes politically appointed members. The most obvious of which would be the Gallente Supreme Court, where the justices are appointed and confirmed by elected officials through a political process. Ever heard anyone accuse the Federation of being pure and sacrosanct and never ever ever prone to corruption? Cuz I haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 9:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/133 "2019-10-11T09:11:11Z")
It’s fantastic to watch the cluster burn when one is at no risk of fire. Almost as fun as all the potential death and mayhem caused by a popular revolt instigated by a wealthy capsuleer saying, “I’m with the people” out of self interest. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 11:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/134 "2019-10-11T11:43:23Z")
My family and home town have been bombed with Deathglow. I’ve lost friends and relatives. I’ve been declared heretic and exiled, and disowned by some of the most important people in my life. Self-interest? _Self-interest_? I gave up everything I ever wanted because I couldn’t justify _my_ self-interest as other people suffered. I’ve watched, and tried to stop, the massacre and torture and abuse of millions of innocent people. “Potential death and mayhem” is a ■■■■■■■■ argument when there is _already_ death and mayhem happening. It’s not about starting a fight, it’s about fighting back against one that already started. ■■■■ you, abuser, blackmailer, murderer, seller of people to Sansha. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/135 "2019-10-11T13:10:48Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > I’ve lost friends and relatives. Ah yes, the reach of your outspokenness can barely even extend to the ones you love, so it’s always going to be a risk practising what you preach without the inherent protections of a capsuleer. Power is never ceded by those who have it without force or violence, so the victims of such violence will not be you, protected as you are, but all those you will fail to protect in your grasping for some semblance of purpose in your life. > [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > seller of people to Sansha. Trader of Gallenteans to Sansha, if one desires to be correct. The other epiphets are all true, and more besides. I’m sure it was a rather apt course to deny the nature of personal liberty so vehemently advocated by their kind. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/136 "2019-10-11T13:58:53Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > protected as you are That protection is _why_ I’m speaking out. Why I have a _responsibility_ to speak out. I can’t sit still and do nothing, when I have the ability to call out abusers without suffering the same consequences others might if they chose to speak out. If that protection will save monsters like you and Nauplius from facing the consequences for your actions, then I will try to use it for something _good_, to speak out for the people who can’t. And among the things I fully intend to go after, _is_ the ridiculous power of the capsuleers. We should _not_ be as powerful, and wealthy, and protected as we are, and I have called that out, and will continue to call it out, until we are brought down from this undeserved loft we inhabit. > [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > all those you will fail to protect I’ve _already_ failed to protect them. I’ve already tried and failed to stop Nauplius, and the Khanid and 24IC butchers, and rogue slavers, and the corrupt Holders. It is not a fight I can win as a capsuleer, and I can’t work through the system when that system is corrupt and dismisses any calls to act. The only way we can fight, is by uniting against corrupt systems, to collectively tell them that the abuse must end. Yes, I won’t be shot or hauled away into shackles or the Cleansing Pits when I stand up to talk about the sins in our society. Others would. That is why I have a _responsibility_ to be the one to stand up and do it. Because I _can_ do it. Because I _can_ get away with it. And maybe, one day, I won’t need to, because those corrupt systems will be gone – including the corrupt, abusive, disgusting system that is the capsuleer. … besides, if the people don’t agree with me, then they won’t act on what I say. I do not have any powers of mind control. I’m not shoving TCMCs into people’s heads. I am not forcing anyone to fight for me. This isn’t even _about_ me. They _shouldn’t_ be fighting for _me_. They should be fighting for _themselves_. If they will listen to what I say, if they will consider what I say, they will act on it only _if_ they believe it is right and worthy. They have their own minds and their own wills. I can only speak, and use the powers I do have to support them and their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/137 "2019-10-11T14:25:26Z")
What protects me is capitalism. The fact that I have wealth and I work with and for others with wealth. I am protected because with that wealth comes power, and the powerful protect each other. It’s just the way things are. A capsuleer by any other name is still just Executive, Banker, Entrepreneur, even Holder. Most everything else is just ensuring effective compliance of populations to serve as a labour force whether it’s about freedom, duty, or religion. In the end, you’re just another idealist and me, well, I’m a realist. ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/138 "2019-10-11T14:33:30Z")
Those with wealth should be using their gains to help those with less, not to enrich themselves. With wealth comes power… and with power comes responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/veikitamo_gesakaarin/32/314638_2.png) [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Veikitamo_Gesakaarin)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/139 "2019-10-11T15:23:52Z")
Sounds to me like you’ve set yourself up for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415/140 "2019-10-11T15:59:19Z")
> [@Veikitamo\_Gesakaarin](#): > > I’m a realist. The more traditional term for one who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing is “a cynic,” Veik. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cavtt-the-test-of-faith/193415.md?page=8)