# CCP - Need to look at neutral bumping alts **URL:** \ **Category:** Warfare & Tactics\ **Created:** [March 17, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872 "2021-03-17T01:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/229 "2021-05-03T14:42:20Z")
> speed vector šŸ¤” something seems wrong about this terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/230 "2021-05-03T15:03:32Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > In the physics of Eve, ships are only sphere, with a speed. Speed and _direction_. Thatā€™s a vector. Only when the ship is at rest with speed 0 it has no direction. ![Epithal vector](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/1/4/5/1455a71c19c40685eb15ad3c9fa871964a74b338.png) In this picture you can see two vectors. 1. The intended move command, which is the longer blue line to the top, representing the intended direction and length of the path where I set the move command (q) to. 2. The vector of the current movement of the ship, as shown by the short blue arrow in front of the Epithal. This oneā€™s direction is the current direction of your ship and the length represents the speed of your ship. (Also seen in blue is tether on the left side, as well as other non-blue lines. These can be ignored.) ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/231 "2021-05-03T15:18:09Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Speed and _direction_. Thatā€™s a vector. I meant velocity. They are spheres with a velocity (=speed vector). > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > In this screenshot you see a capsule with a current direction (to bottom right) and a vector (speed + direction) pointing to the top right in the picture. No. In that screen, you see the shipsā€™s last tickā€™s speed, as well as your own speed projected on that ship. this allows you when you are following a ship to make your ship match your target speed ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/232 "2021-05-03T15:19:09Z")
I edited for a clearer picture showing the two different vectors. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/233 "2021-05-03T15:24:39Z")
The vector that is shown and you call ā€œintendedā€ is actually the displacement vector, that is the vector of difference of position between your and the point you want to approach. It has no interest besides being the integrate of your speed vector you need to have in order to reach that point. Itā€™s not ā€œintended speedā€ but ā€œintended displacementā€ ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/234 "2021-05-03T15:27:37Z")
I donā€™t really care about how you wish to call it. If itā€™s ā€˜indended displacementā€™, sure. What I wanted to point out is that these are two different vectors: 1. Intended displacement vector 2. Vector of your ship And that people who are talking about the ā€˜directionā€™ of a ship should be aware of these vectors, and the difference between them. Renly was talking about using vector 1 to define the ā€˜faceā€™ of a ship, while I would say it would make much more sense to use vector 2, if you want to use a vector at all, as vector 2 cannot instantly be turned 180 degrees, while vector 1 can, as vector 2 relies on the agility and speed of your ship, while vector 1 only depends on the _intention_ of the pilot and as such can easily be gamed if these vectors get any additional gameplay implications. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/235 "2021-05-03T15:35:53Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > What I wanted to point out is that these are two different vectors: And what I told you, is that once you reach your target, or when you orbit a target, then there is no direction associated to the displacement vector. This is just non existent in the engine, and is solely a visual artifact to help you understand your ship behavior. So if we talk about the mechanisms of the game, this vector (1) does not exist, no more than the alignment. Your ship is a sphere, with a velocity. And thatā€™s it WRT alignment. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > as vector 2 cannot instantly be turned 180 degrees, Actually it can. If you are going towards me, and I go towards you, and Iā€™m heavier than you, and we hit each other, your velocity will go backwards under a tick. With a ā€œpopā€ noise. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > while vector 1 only depends on the _intention_ of the pilot and as such can easily be gamed It canā€™t because it does not exist. It just canā€™t be used at all. Again, your ship is just a sphere with a velocity. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/236 "2021-05-03T15:39:57Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Actually it can. If you are going towards me, and I go towards you, and Iā€™m heavier than you, and we hit each other, your velocity will go backwards under a tick. With a ā€œpopā€ noise. True. But what I meant was, not without external bumping. A ship on itself needs time to turn. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It canā€™t because it does not exist. It just canā€™t be used at all. > > Again, your ship is just a sphere with a velocity. And a direction. As shown in my previously linked picture. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > And what I told you, is that once you reach your target, or when you orbit a target, then there is no direction associated to the displacement vector. > > This is just non existent in the engine, and is solely a visual artifact to help you understand your ship behavior. > > So if we talk about the mechanisms of the game, this vector (1) does not exist, no more than the alignment. Your ship is a sphere, with a velocity. And thatā€™s it WRT alignment. And a direction. If your ship only had a velocity, why does it take time to turn? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/237 "2021-05-03T15:54:19Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > A ship on itself needs time to turn. No. If you go in a direction, and ask to go backward, then your ship speed will be 0 between two ticks, and your direction will be switched from one tick to another. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > And a direction. As shown in my previously linked picture. No, no direction besides the velocity. Velocity already implies direction, as being the speed vector (the derivative of position on time). > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > If your ship only had a velocity, why does it take time to turn? It does not take time to turn. Your ship has no alignment, so it does not turn. It only changes it velocity, as a sphere. Your ship is a sphere, with a velocity. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/238 "2021-05-03T16:04:45Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It does not take time to turn. Your ship has no alignment, so it does not turn. It only changes it velocity, as a sphere. šŸ˜‚ Do you only fly instawarp ships or something? Ships _most certainly_ have a direction. And except for the most agile ships, it most certainly takes time for ships with a nonzero velocity to turn. ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/239 "2021-05-03T16:05:10Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Your ship is a sphere, with a velocity. Period. You keep repeating that ships are spheres as if it explains away what is being said. It doesnā€™t. It seems to me the sphere has directionality, otherwise there would be no way to calculate a turning arc or its velocity. And if it has directionality then it has a back point and a front point that remain stable. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/240 "2021-05-03T16:09:32Z")
> [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > And if it has directionality then it has a back point and a front point that remain stable. A ship in motion can indeed have a well-defined ā€˜frontā€™ based on itā€™s current direction. But Iā€™m not sure what you would like to accomplish with that. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/241 "2021-05-03T16:11:48Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Ships _most certainly_ have a direction. already answered to that : > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No, no direction besides the velocity. Velocity already implies direction, as being the speed vector (the derivative of position on time). > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > it most certainly takes time for ships with a nonzero velocity to turn. They canā€™t turn, because they have no direction besides the velocity. A sphere with velocity canā€™t turn. It only changes its velocity. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > You keep repeating that ships are spheres as if it explains away what is being said. It doesnā€™t. Yes it does. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > And if it has directionality then it has a back point and a front point that remain stable. No. It has a velocity, period. Thatā€™s literally what ā€œbeing a sphereā€ implies : it has no back and no front. Its only direction is the one of its velocity. Any other direction than its velocityā€™s is wrong. Itā€™s the opposite of reality : in the reality, items have a velocity, an alignment, a position. They precisely donā€™t have an alignment in Eve, therefore we call them ā€œspheres with velocityā€. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/242 "2021-05-03T16:15:35Z")
If the ship has a velocity, and as you say, direction is a part of velocity, does that mean a ship has a direction? Yes, it does. Ships in EVE have a direction. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/243 "2021-05-03T16:16:43Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > A sphere with velocity canā€™t turn. It only changes its velocity. A car with velocity cannot turn either, it just changes velocity when it takes a corner. Sure Anderson, Sure. Please continue. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/244 "2021-05-03T16:17:47Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > If the ship has a velocity, and as you say, direction is a part of velocity, does that mean a ship has a direction? You repeat yourself. I already answered that : they have no direction besides their velocityā€™s. You can repeat the same question, it will still produce the same answers. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > A car with velocity cannot turn either, it just changes velocity when it takes a corner. > > Sure Anderson, Sure. Please continue. A car is not a sphere. You are being an idiot under the pretext of irony. Ships donā€™t have an alignment. They only have velocity. A car has an alignement, like most things in the world (cf angular momentum) ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/245 "2021-05-03T16:24:13Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You repeat yourself. > > I already answered that : they have no direction besides their velocityā€™s. > > You can repeat the same question, it will still produce the same answers. Which means they do have a direction, like you said. Glad we made that clear: ships in EVE have direction. Now what if we use that direction to define a front and back of the ship? And I donā€™t care that the ship is actually a sphere, letā€™s define the ā€˜frontā€™ based on the direction of the sphere and use this front for gameplay purposes. Is that possible? While it is hard to define a front on a sphere, we can define a front on a sphere with a direction - I could split the ship-sphere in two halves, cut perpendicular to the direction the ship is going, then define the half in the direction the ship is going as the ā€˜frontā€™ sphere and the other half as the ā€˜backā€™ of the sphere. So yes, we can define a front for the ships based on their direction, even if the ships are spheres. Now that we cleared this up, letā€™s continue the discussion based on the facts that: - the ships in EVE have a direction as a result of their velocity - we can define a ā€˜frontā€™ on the ship based on this direction ---
**Author:** ![Renly\_Rohan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/renly_rohan/32/402846_2.png) [@Renly\_Rohan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Renly_Rohan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/246 "2021-05-03T18:03:31Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No. It has a velocity, period. Thatā€™s literally what ā€œbeing a sphereā€ implies : it has no back and no front. Its only direction is the one of its velocity. Implies yes. Is absoluteā€¦not. The way ships move prove that the shipā€™s internal locomotion is based on two fixed points on the sphere, one always behind the other. The actual movement as affected by outside objects can vary, but the sphere itself, assuming the pilot has given a command to move, is always trying to align the points along the selected trajectory from when the pilot gave the command to move. That sphere is not moving like a saucer shaped alien spacecraft from old movies, which is what we would have if the sphere had no fixed points on it. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > : it has no back and no front. Its only direction is the one of its velocity. Just because it has no NATURAL back or front does NOT mean one cannot be assigned to it. They can, and obviously have been. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/247 "2021-05-03T18:29:41Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Which means they do have a direction, like you said. Glad we made that clear: ships in EVE have direction. No it does not. They donā€™t have a direction besides their velocityā€™s. PERIOD. They donā€™t have their own direction. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > While it is hard to define a front on a sphere, we can define a front on a sphere with a direction - I could split the ship-sphere in two halves, No, because a sphere cut has a direction (the perpendicular to the plane of the cut). All you are saying is, that when adding a direction, you can add a direction. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > the ships in EVE have a direction as a result of their velocity They donā€™t. If something has a direction, it can go backward. Ships canā€™t. > [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > we can define a ā€˜frontā€™ on the ship based on this direction You can name ā€œfrontā€ anything. For example, you can name ā€œfrontā€ the part of the sphere with the highest z part . This is still a nonsense. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > Just because it has no NATURAL back or front does NOT mean one cannot be assigned to it. They can, and obviously have been. assign != imagine. You can imagine a direction. Does not mean they are assigned one. > [@Renly\_Rohan](#): > > That sphere is not moving like a saucer shaped alien spacecraft from old movies, which is what we would have if the sphere had no fixed points on it. YES. FFS. IT ACTUALLY IS. How can you be so ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā– ā–  slow not to be able to understand IT EXACTLY IS. SHIPS ARE JUST A SPHERE WITH A VELOCITY. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872/249 "2021-05-03T19:14:50Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Which step is wrong according to you? The third one. Ships have a velocity. Period. example : you have a wife. Your wife has a brain. Therefore you have a brain ? Nope. You have your wifeā€™s brain. Another example : you have a sister. She has a brother. Therefore you have a brother ? Nope. "have a " is not transitive. Cars in real life have a direction. Ships in Eve donā€™t have a direction. They are spheres with a velocity. If you want to use the image of the flying saucer, itā€™s just as good : ships in eve donā€™t have a direction. Just because your client represents them with a direction, does not mean they have one. Itā€™s just like I draw an heart on your cheek, does not mean you get a new fresh heart on your cheek. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-need-to-look-at-neutral-bumping-alts/300872.md?page=13)