# CCP plans to remove PvP from HS **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 27, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184 "2020-12-27T20:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/630 "2021-03-13T14:04:09Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The sheer willful ignorance. > > The whole world is wrong. Only you know the truth. I think the bottom line to your argument is that you have a vision of the game, and anyone who sees it differently is wrong, which is ironic given your last statement. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/631 "2021-03-13T14:07:10Z")
Surely that’s **your** argument since a survey given to the players, CCP and an article from INN support my argument. Meanwhile who or what agrees with you? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/632 "2021-03-13T14:09:08Z")
The problem is that correlation is not a causation and you both act like correlation had any intrinsic meaning. A correlation is just an observation that variable are varying together (from -1 for “those variables are in total opposition” to 1 for “those variables are always moving together”, and 0 for “no correlation at all”). This observation is only valid for a given dataset, so another dataset may as well give the opposed correlation . So trying to make general rules from correlations in graph is just a nonsense : correlations help you to try to find causations, but NEVER are a sign/proof of causation. The second issue is the use of un-rigorous terms : you use terms that are not rigorously defined after looking at the data, so you can use the terms that fit the data with an error margin acceptable. Then your confirmation bias (that everybody has) will stretch the data and the terms used. But in reality, this is just making arbitrary interpretations without any rigorous sense. So things like “saturated”, “stagnated”, “healthy economy” too are just made-up terms that have no reality besides the will for their user to create a representation that match their hidden agenda. You need to define those terms BEFORE you start looking at the data, otherwise your interpretation is biased and meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/633 "2021-03-13T14:10:39Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Surely that’s **your** argument since a survey given to the players, CCP and an article from INN support my argument. > > Meanwhile who or what agrees with you? So your argument is based on opinion. Inherently subjective and devoid of any actual defined criteria. Yes, I know. I also think it’s funny that you side with CCP as doing the right thing when you are against them making hi-sec safer. So they are right when they agree with what you want, but wrong when they disagree with what you want. Do you want to keep digging your hole or? ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/634 "2021-03-13T14:16:43Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > The problem is that correlation is not a causation and you both act like correlation had any intrinsic meaning. All causations are correlated. You can disprove causation by showing an absence of correlation. I was telling him you can’t determine no correlation exists from the graphs, which implies you can’t rule out a causation. That was my message. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/635 "2021-03-13T14:22:06Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > All causations are correlated. No they are not. Since you can have a correlation in a dataset, and no correlation in another one, this is also the case even if there is a causation : some causations can be “hidden” by eg data sampling, probabilistic noise, etc. Therefore even in the absence of correlation there can still be a causation. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > I was telling him you can’t determine no correlation exists from the graphs You can observe there is no/low correlation in the graph, but you are correct that you can’t rule out causation just because you don’t find a correlation in a specific dataset. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/636 "2021-03-13T14:24:36Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No they are not. > Since you can have a correlation in a dataset, and no correlation in another one, this is also the case even if there is a causation : some causations can be “hidden” by eg data sampling, probabilistic noise, etc. > Therefore even in the absence of correlation there can still be a causation. That’s lack of data. That’s a practical issue, not a theoretical contradiction. You would find the correlation eventually if you collected enough data. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/637 "2021-03-13T14:26:10Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > The problem is that correlation is not a causation and you both act like correlation had any intrinsic meaning. Well in this case we had ‘causation’ and were looking for correlation. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > So things like “saturated”, “stagnated”, “healthy economy” too are just made-up terms that have no reality besides the will for their user to create a representation that match their hidden agenda. All of this is about opinions. I’m trying to explain to the guy that his opinions are not fact and actually most people, including the general playerbase, CCP and some dude on INN have different opinions to him. Hence ‘speak for yourself’. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > So your argument is based on opinion. Inherently subjective and devoid of any actual defined criteria. So is **yours**. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. The difference being there is nothing to support your opinion. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > So they are right when they agree with what you want, but wrong when they disagree with what you want. Well yes. I can agree with CCP sometimes and disagree with them at others. I’m not a sycophant. But as the arbiters of the game it’s they who decide where a healthy ecosystem should be. And you can of course disagree, but try not to do it with dishonest statements like ‘_pvp players are limited by isk_’ or ‘_cheap ships means more pvp_’. Cause it’s demonstrably not the case. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No they are not. > Since you can have a correlation in a dataset, and no correlation in another one, this is also the case even if there is a causation : some causations can be “hidden” by eg data sampling, probabilistic noise, etc. > Therefore even in the absence of correlation there can still be a causation. So you’re saying correlations (or lack there of) should be ignored? ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/638 "2021-03-13T14:32:10Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Well in this case we had ‘causation’ and were looking for correlation. I hypothesized causation with a logical argument. That is I said lower ISK generation and mineral collection would results is a lower number of ships destroyed. We were looking for evidence to support that argument, and I showed you what I consider to be evidence to back up my hypothesis. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > All of this is about opinions. I’m trying to explain to the guy that his opinions are not fact Sure, but you can’t explain to me why my opinion is wrong, so… > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So is **yours**. No it’s no if you actually listen to what I’m saying. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So you’re saying correlations (or lack there of) should be ignored? No, what he is saying is you need to explain any correlations you find, or understand why the correlation you thought would be there isn’t. It’s quite funny that you think the correct thing to do is ignore data. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/639 "2021-03-13T14:34:58Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > That’s lack of data. That’s a practical issue, not a theoretical contradiction. You would find the correlation eventually if you collected enough data. No, you may not. Correlation is ONLY linked to a dataset. You can create an infinite amount of dataset based on the same model that contains a causation, and never find a correlation. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So you’re saying correlations (or lack there of) should be ignored? They are not proof, just hint what you should work on. That’s the meaning of “a correlation is not a causation”. That’s also what reminded CCP rise when he said “we need actionable event” : correlation bear no systematic meaning, and actually you can’t find causation by observation only. That’s why BlackOut was a good things, from a scientist point of view, and so are CCP with their scarcicity &co. Shoot the ant house and look how it recreates itself. Note that you can make model based on the correlation observed, and they may actually have a predictive power good enough for a short range of event, but it does not mean they ARE correct, as when applied to events outside of the range of observations already made they lose any predictive power they had. Many times we don’t need to be 100% accurate to make predictions. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/640 "2021-03-13T14:46:07Z")
> **[Correlation and causation](https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/understanding-statistics/statistical-terms-and-concepts/correlation-and-causation)** > Causality is the area of statistics that is commonly misunderstood and misused by people in the mistaken belief that because the data shows a correlation that there is necessarily an underlying causal relationship also > **[Spurious Correlations](https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations)** > > Correlation is not causation: thousands of charts of real data showing actual correlations between ridiculous variables. Therefore, every time someone’s argument uses correlations or the absence of, you know he is wrong. Correlations, or their absence of, can never be used as a proof. Only people with very bad statistical knowledge affirm the opposite . They make a special kind of fool when they then affirm to have a PhD, since that’s one of the most important thing you are warned against when doing a PhD. Like this one : > [@High sec should be.. more safe](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/high-sec-should-be-more-safe/190631/481): > > In other words, correlation (despite the words of your CCP science advisor) does imply causation ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/641 "2021-03-13T14:55:30Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > and I showed you what I consider to be evidence to back up my hypothesis. But you don’t understand how pointing out one year of correlation vs the other 16 years of not correlation might actually **not** be a correlation. You’re trying to say there is a relationship between ship price and pvp despite those graphs showing no such thing, except for maybe one year? You understand thats the argument you’re making? You’re sticking with that? > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > No it’s no if you actually listen to what I’m saying. I **quoted** what you said earlier in this thread. What are you saying if it isn’t ‘_cheap ships means more pvp_’? > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > No, what he is saying is you need to explain any correlations you find, **or understand why the correlation you thought would be there isn’t.** Emphasis mine! > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > They are not proof, just hint what you should work on. That’s the meaning of “a correlation is not a causation”. Not proof. But supporting evidence. Can you say here and now that correlation is useless and should always be ignored or sometimes useful for indicating relationships (or lack there of) between two variables? ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/642 "2021-03-13T15:01:49Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No, you may not. Correlation is ONLY linked to a dataset. You can create an infinite amount of dataset based on the same model that contains a causation, and never find a correlation. Correlation is the manifestation of two causally linked variables. If your dataset is both infinite and the observed variables are relevant, then the correlation must appear. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/643 "2021-03-13T15:08:26Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Not proof. But supporting evidence. Nope, neither. It does not support anything at all. Actually, there is no correlation between correlations and causations. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Can you say here and now that correlation is useless and should always be ignored or sometimes useful for indicating relationships (or lack there of) between two variables? They ARE meaningless, by their nature of depending on the observer, NOT on the reality. They however can help you search things. You are completely wrong when you use correlations as proof or “supportive evidence”. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > Correlation is the manifestation of two causally linked variables. Nope. That’s literally written in the linked I gave above : > Causality is the area of statistics that is commonly misunderstood and misused by people in the mistaken belief that because the data shows a correlation that there is necessarily an underlying causal relationship > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > If your dataset is both infinite and the observed variables are relevant, then the correlation must appear. This is just wrong. Even with homogeneous distributed observed variable (I believe that what you think for relevant), nothing prevents you from having an infinity of datasets which do not show a correlation for an existing causation. You both should take lessons in statistics. Your discussion is sterile for the sole reason that you have no idea what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/644 "2021-03-13T15:18:58Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > But you don’t understand how pointing out one year of correlation vs the other 16 years of not correlation might actually **not** be a correlation. It’s actually the total period since rorquals were in the prenerfed state which I’m interested and the correlation is there to see, as I explained. If you think I’m talking about a 1 year period then you don’t even understand the argument, therefore, how can you claim I’m wrong. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You’re trying to say there is a relationship between ship price and pvp No I’m not. I’m saying there is a relationship between ISK generation and production, and the amount of ships destroyed. I’m hypothesizing about the ship price relative to player purchasing power as the cause of why the relationship exists. You have yet to explain why my hypothesis is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/645 "2021-03-13T15:20:39Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > You have yet to explain why my hypothesis is wrong. That’s not how it works. Just because your interpretation is not inconsistent, does not mean it’s true. You are inverting the burden of proof. You can make hypothesis. But then you need to evaluate when they are correct, and when they are wrong, with the same importance. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/646 "2021-03-13T15:22:30Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s not how it works. > Just because your interpretation is not inconsistent, does not mean it’s true. > You are inverting the burden of proof. Of course not, but he is saying I am wrong, so obviously that means he can prove it, which is what I’m asking him to do. I’m under no illusion that I am 100% correct. Hence, why it’s a hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/647 "2021-03-13T15:24:59Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > but he is saying I am wrong, so obviously that means he can prove it What is asserted without a proof, is dismissed without a proof. If you have no proof for your hypothesis, then your hypothesis is wrong without any further proof. Your hypothesis may be consistent with the observed dataset, but being consistent is not enough to be considered a proof. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/648 "2021-03-13T15:27:09Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You are completely wrong when you use correlations as proof or “supportive evidence” So when CCP nerfed wardecs based on correlation they were completely wrong? And most of the scientific community is wrong about global warming? > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > It’s actually the total period since rorquals were in the prenerfed state which I’m interested and the correlation is there to see, as I explained. If you think I’m talking about a 1 year period then you don’t even understand the argument, therefore, how can you claim I’m wrong. Even then, you’re still saying the correlation only applies **some** of the time. It is the equivalent of saying your hypothesis is correct **some** of the time. Do you understand? > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > I’m saying there is a relationship between ISK generation and production, and the amount of ships destroyed. Even if this is what you were saying. They still don’t follow eachother. Production and isk generation is in decline the past year, yet destruction has been steady or increased. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Your hypothesis may be consistent with the observed dataset, but being consistent is not enough to be considered a proof. It’s not even consistent… ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/649 "2021-03-13T15:31:35Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > What is asserted without a proof, is dismissed without a proof. For some reason this is not widely accepted on the forum. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > If you have no proof for your hypothesis, then your hypothesis is wrong without any further proof. Inconclusive, not wrong. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Your hypothesis may be consistent with the observed dataset, but being consistent is not enough to be considered a proof. Agreed. But the profession of statistical analysis is mostly about trying to explain your data and building up a case for your hypothesis. Then the strength of your hypothesis increases or decreases depending on new data and analyses. I’m not doing anything unreasonable by performing an analysis and discussing it. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184.md?page=29) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184.md?page=31)