# CCP plans to remove PvP from HS **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 27, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184 "2020-12-27T20:32:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/650 "2021-03-13T15:35:38Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Even then, you’re still saying the correlation only applies **some** of the time. I’m saying it may only appear some of the time. It may be drowned out by other interactions at some point in time. The causal link would still be there. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > yet destruction has been steady or increased. ISK destruction has, but I already explained why ISK destruction is the wrong metric. Go back and read. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/651 "2021-03-13T15:38:05Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So when CCP nerfed wardecs based on correlation they were completely wrong? > > And most of the scientific community is wrong about global warming? Here you are again misunderstanding things with a dishonnest intent, as I already explained you why you were wrong. Wardecs data helped them to search for data, which they got from nerfing the wardecs. Nerfing the wardec is an actionable variable that can be used to make causations. You are again ranting like a little child who can’t accept to be slapped his hands, and making dishonest parrallels. You were wrong, deal with it. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > And most of the scientific community is wrong about global warming? It’s not correlation. Carbon Dioxyde (or other gases) DOES increase the temperature, that’s exactly the job of scientists to prove it. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > Inconclusive, not wrong. Correct, I meant the affirmation of your hypothesis. Using your hypothesis is wrong though . > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > But the profession of statistical analysis is mostly about trying to explain your data and building up a case for your hypothesis That’s the first step. Then you need to design protocols to prove that hypothesis. Otherwise you remain stuck in the hypothesis and can’t say anything. Also I wrote : > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Note that you can make model based on the correlation observed, and they may actually have a predictive power good enough for a short range of event, but it does not mean they ARE correct, as when applied to events outside of the range of observations already made they lose any predictive power they had. Many times we don’t need to be 100% accurate to make predictions. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/652 "2021-03-13T15:49:30Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Correct, I meant the affirmation of your hypothesis. Using your hypothesis is wrong though . Sure, but I’m more using it to ask people to pick holes in my hypothesis than using it seriously to push some kind of agenda. I was fine with the state of the game a few years ago, I’m fine with the game now. I just do not agree that strangling players income results in a more exciting game. From a personal perspective, it means I just have to spend more time generating ISK to fly the ships I want to fly. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s the first step. Then you need to design protocols to prove that hypothesis. Otherwise you remain stuck in the hypothesis and can’t say anything. Well, like I said, you build up a case. You can’t really prove anything outside of mathematics with 100% certainty. Everything we know is statistically ‘proven’ with a sigma rating. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Note that you can make model based on the correlation observed, and they may actually have a predictive power good enough for a short range of event, but it does not mean they ARE correct, as when applied to events outside of the range of observations already made they lose any predictive power they had. Many times we don’t need to be 100% accurate to make predictions. I agree, a model is only as good as the assumptions made. This is why you must interrogate your assumptions and find out if they make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/653 "2021-03-13T15:56:15Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > Everything we know is statistically ‘proven’ with a sigma rating. No. Science is the production of knowledge through reproducible experiments. Now I agree that the interpretation of the results may be wrong. Maybe there is no force that makes the apple fall, and it’s actually us who are accelerating upward. 🙂 So yes you can actually prove causation, but only with actionable variables and correct protocols. And that’s the very hard part. Making correlations is easy and child play. Proving causations is a job. That’s why CCP presentation on the topic were interesting, because CCP actually hired someone who knew what he was talking about. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/b/9b58f56e23e782e38e54b390edd8392104b34c46.jpeg "EVE Fanfest 2015: Data Science behind EVE") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-jfvjMoe9Y&t=1155s) ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/654 "2021-03-13T16:07:20Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No. > Science is the production of knowledge through reproducible experiments. This is exactly what I’m saying. Sigma rating is a measure of how likely your hypothesis is to be correct. Independent studies add to the knowledge base and experimental data base. As more data and more knowledge is collected, the sigma rating increases. The point at which you consider something to be true depends on the sigma rating you choose. In physics, a 5 sigma rating is the standard by which discoveries are accepted as such, in other fields, a 2 sigma rating is considered sufficient for practical purposes. There is no single accepted number for proof. You can prove causation because it’s usually based on a mathematical principle when boiled down to the fundamentals. But for questions where mathematics doesn’t help, like does god exist, or where the mathematics becomes too complex, like what is the weather going to be like in a month - the answers to these questions are unprovable to us, and so we must rely on building up evidence to accept them as fact or fiction and choose what we accept as sufficient evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/655 "2021-03-13T16:11:53Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > I’m saying it may only appear some of the time. It may be drowned out by other interactions at some point in time. The causal link would still be there. So you’re just making the assumption that you’re hypothesis is always right and anytime it’s not it’s ‘just cause’. That may be the strongest confirmation bias I have ever seen. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > ISK destruction has, but I already explained why ISK destruction is the wrong metric. Go back and read. Not only isk destruction but also number of ships destroyed. Neither are following the trend of production and isk generated. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Wardecs data helped them to search for data, which they got from nerfing the wardecs. Nerfing the wardec is an actionable variable that can be used to make causations. You have it backwards. CCP nerfed wardecs because of a correlation. You do actually know this to be the case. They didn’t then come out and say ‘nerfing wardecs improved retention’ did they? OR Nerfing production was an actionable moment and there was no corresponding drop in destruction or number of ships destroyed. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > It’s not correlation. Carbon Dioxyde (or other gases) DOES increase the temperature, that’s exactly the job of scientists to prove it. It is correlation though. That’s why Al Gore goes round with the presentation he does, one slide in particular. The world didn’t decide to deliberately dump more CO2 into the atmosphere and measure the results. They simply watched the correlation between two variables that were already in motion. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > From a **personal** perspective, it means I just have to spend more time generating ISK to fly the ships I want to fly. Finally. And you could have said that here: > [@CCP plans to remove PvP from HS](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/591): > > How i feel about resources in the game is not related to the size of ships i feel you should personally fly. Mostly because i have no feelings on the size of ships you should personally fly. So you’re saying pvp outside of big ships is impossible for you. So when you said this: You meant your pvp is limited by ISK. And when you said this: You meant your destruction will increase. Do you see how you’ve confused your motivation for everyone else’s? In your opinion. But the playerbase… ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/656 "2021-03-13T16:19:07Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So you’re just making the assumption that you’re hypothesis is always right and anytime it’s not it’s ‘just cause’. > > That may be the strongest confirmation bias I have ever seen. Literally said I’m not a few posts ago. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Not only isk destruction but also number of ships destroyed. Neither are following the trend of production and isk generated. Ships destroyed only and I already showed evidence that it was following the trend, because ship destruction has been decreasing since production decreased, and was stable when production was stable. > [@CCP plans to remove PvP from HS](#): > > Do you see how you’ve confused your motivation for everyone else’s? In your opinion. But the playerbase… No, I see how you keep saying that I’m saying stuff I haven’t said and I keep having to reexplain the exact same point to you over and over again. I don’t know why I am doing this, I should just ignore you, so I will. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/657 "2021-03-13T16:19:21Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > the answers to these questions are unprovable to us, and so we must rely on building up evidence to accept them as fact or fiction and choose what we accept as sufficient evidence. You can just accept you don’t have an adequate answer for those questions. Wisdom is the knowledge of your limits. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > You can prove causation because it’s usually based on a mathematical principle when boiled down to the fundamentals. What ? When I drop an apple, it falls. That’s a causation. If I start smoking, my life expectancy will be divided by 2. Another causation (this one may not be true ^^ ). > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > You have it backwards. No, you. You already asked this question and were not able to understand my answer, because you are blinded by your hidden agenda. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They didn’t then come out and say ‘nerfing wardecs improved retention’ did they? They don’t need to. They have no duty to give their data to you. Especially since you are not able to understand them. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > It is correlation though. There was MORE than correlation. That’s the definition of science, again : go from correlations to actual causations. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They simply watched the correlation between two variables that were already in motion. No they did not ONLY do that. Correlations were the first step. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/658 "2021-03-13T16:22:56Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You can just accept you don’t have an adequate answer for those questions. Wisdom is the knowledge of your limits. I already did when I said my hypothesis was inconclusive. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > What ? When I drop an apple, it falls. That’s a causation. That’s an observation. Not a causation. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/659 "2021-03-13T16:30:06Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > If I start smoking, my life expectancy will be divided by 2. Another causation (this one may not be true ^^ ). This should also say decrease, and again, that would be ‘proven’ using statistical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/660 "2021-03-13T16:41:21Z")
> [@hellokittyonline](#): > > So CCP plans to try to move PvP out of HS… Many of you know as well as I do that this will not work. I hope as many of you realize that this will trash the economy when folks in HS can farm isk with impunity. This is false. We have already covered that NPCS can provide equal or superior risk to players. > [@hellokittyonline](#): > > Mark my words. The day PvP is removed from HS is the day EvE truly dies. Nope, Actually its the day eve will start to regrow itself. Mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/661 "2021-03-13T16:43:04Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > Ships destroyed only and I already showed evidence that it was following the trend, because ship destruction has been decreasing since production decreased, and was stable when production was stable. Production is nerfed in 2019…so why is the number of ships destroyed higher in 2020 than it is 2018 and 2019? > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > No, I see how you keep saying that I’m saying stuff I haven’t said They are **quotes**. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > They don’t need to. Then they didn’t need to talk about the correlation with the csm before hand either. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s the definition of science, again : go from correlations to actual causations. Again, wardecs. CCP took the causation and looked for correlation, found something that confirmed their feelings and then acted. ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/662 "2021-03-13T16:44:09Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Production is nerfed in 2019…so why is the number of ships destroyed higher in 2020 than it is 2018 and 2019? Because you are reading the graph like a climate change denier. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/663 "2021-03-13T16:45:28Z")
This is unlikely due to the fact that the entire system is in base code which ccp does not want to touch ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/664 "2021-03-13T16:45:31Z")
> [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > Because you are reading the graph like a climate change denier. If i was then surely I’d also deny climate change… ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/665 "2021-03-13T16:50:48Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > If i was then surely I’d also deny climate change… There are more ways than 1 to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/666 "2021-03-13T16:58:45Z")
If this is true, I am very happy ccp at last woke up to reality and going forward would be definitely open to talking about ways high sec should have legalized pvp (likely i’d advocate through the war system (mutual war only in high sec) and/or the faction war system). I know a lot of the ganker types will not like this, but them being in low sec really is best for the game and giving the various types of game play (alliance pvp, pirating, care bearing, and faction war) a much more uniquely applied “do this in that space”). that being said, i am totally open to talking about ways high sec should be dangerous for players that live there. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/667 "2021-03-13T17:00:20Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > CCP took the causation and looked for correlation, found something that confirmed their feelings and then acted. Nope. You are wrong again and blinded by your personal agenda. > [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](#): > > This should also say decrease, and again, that would be ‘proven’ using statistical evidence. No. That is proven by experiment, not by statistical evidences. That’s actually what the tobacco industry used and they were right to do so, even though they had ill intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/668 "2021-03-13T17:04:03Z")
This thread is guuuud ![giphy (9)](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/0/2/02d1adc0877921146ffb484141d0a07152e45d57.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kadia_kakki_sotken/32/261190_2.png) [@Kadia\_Kakki\_Sotken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kadia_Kakki_Sotken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184/669 "2021-03-13T17:14:30Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No. That is proven by experiment, not by statistical evidences. That’s actually what the tobacco industry used and they were right to do so, even though they had ill intentions. When you perform an experiment, you collect data, which must be analysed with statistical methods. Reproducibility is not proof on it’s own. How do you know you will get the same result next tiem you run the experiment? The answer is that you must analyse the situation and understand WHY the experiment is reproducible, which requires you to make a hypothesis. Hypotheses require data to validate them, and validation is the statistical threshold at which you are willing to say you accept the hypothesis as true… The tobacco industry used data to show there was no evidence tobacco was harmful to health. However, the wrong conclusion was drawn because of insufficient data. I don’t understand what you mean when you say this wasn’t shown with statistical evidence. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184.md?page=30) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-plans-to-remove-pvp-from-hs/287184.md?page=32)