# CCP Rattati on a stream talking about economy **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278 "2021-03-02T19:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/62 "2021-03-04T21:12:37Z")
If I could give you ten likes for that post, I would. Your TLDR; is spot on. But ONLY for the wording of the TLDR; ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/63 "2021-03-04T23:51:29Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > People like to understand progress and most people who are new in Eve have no basis for understanding whether they are progressing. How you define progress may not be how others define progress. Eve is not a game with any objectives except the ones you set for yourself. And most players (and devs) define progress incorrectly. Trying to put it into a tutorial will be disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2021, 11:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/64 "2021-03-04T23:59:54Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Trying to put it into a tutorial will be disastrous. I didn’t say to put it into a tutorial. I said we need to help people understand for different paths, what progress in the path looks like. It’s intuitive for vets of that path but not for others. But I appreciate you arguing against something of your own creation. Easier that way : ) ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/65 "2021-03-05T00:04:22Z")
That seemed to be what you were getting at. And the same thing applies to ‘path’. You are still telling people what progression is when it’s entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless beyond the individual. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/66 "2021-03-05T00:19:51Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > And the same thing applies to ‘path’. You are still telling people what progression is when it’s entirely subjective and ultimately meaningless beyond the individual. The history of gaming suggests you are wrong. It may be meaningless to you. And it’s that thought that is causing CCP to totally botch the NPE. Enjoy the day/evening. ---
**Author:** ![Vintus\_Turgalium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vintus_turgalium/32/349350_2.png) [@Vintus\_Turgalium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vintus_Turgalium)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/67 "2021-03-05T00:23:48Z")
> [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](#): > > I am not going to comment on any of the above , each of those are an entirely different thread . I will give it time and give CCP a change to make this universe a better one. Time will tell , I hope that by the end of this year , we’ll have a much better game. > This does not mean that I’m not worried … A very mature and faithful stance to take. One most of us have not taken. Admirable. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/68 "2021-03-05T01:56:57Z")
Games that have the same path that every one has to follow, then yea, progression is the same etc. in EVE, you cannot compare it to other games… EVE is a dragonfruit in a sea of apples and oranges. progression, paths, careers etc, in EVE are not linear and no two people will match up with the same, unless they follow the same route, even then, bumps in the road can change the path for one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/69 "2021-03-05T02:00:02Z")
More like a durian. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/70 "2021-03-05T02:24:29Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > The history of gaming suggests you are wrong. It may be meaningless to you. And it’s that thought that is causing CCP to totally botch the NPE. > > Enjoy the day/evening. EVE does not follow the ‘history of gaming’ and that’s why you are making a mistake. In the history of gaming you picked a ‘class’ and that class had linear or semi-linear ‘progression’ like levels. EVE does not have classes. It does not have levels. It does not even have ‘paths’. This is what i mean when most players don’t define progression correctly. You want to be told what to do and and be given validation when reaching certain milestones. But EVE cannot work that way because one persons mile stones are different from another. So who do you validate and when? You can’t because it’s a shitty system that validates one persons milestones and not another. Take exploration. You think exploration is a ‘path’. It’s not really. It’s better defined as an activity. Why? Because the fact that i participate in exploration does not mean i define myself by that profession. It is not my path nor my class. The other thing is that the way EVE works is so non-linear that i can jump into the deep end of exploration (whatever you think that may be) without first ‘progressing’ through the beginning. I don’t have to first practice exploration in hi-sec before i move onto other areas of space. There is no ‘path’ to follow. And if you try to make one it **WILL** be meaningless to most of us. * * * Just to demonstrate to you how bad the idea of paths and progression is let’s look at missions. Missions DO have a progression system and they DO have levels as a way of validating your milestones. And higher levels can only be unlocked by first completing so many amounts of lower missions. And when new players choose the ‘path’ of ‘leveling up their raven’, they are more likely to quit. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/71 "2021-03-05T02:40:08Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > EVE does not follow the ‘history of gaming’ I used to think the same way, now I’m not so sure with ccp’s latest decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 5:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/72 "2021-03-05T05:28:15Z")
It’s not the game that is changing to be similar to other games, its the devs… there’s a difference… While EVE overall is still not like other games, CCP is making changes that … makes one wonder if the hamsters above the neck are still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 6:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/73 "2021-03-05T06:27:18Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > I don’t have to first practice exploration in hi-sec before i move onto other areas of space Technically true and false at the same time. You can technically go to null sec or W-space for exploration right away because no gates will prevent you from doing that, but without first training some skills and learning at least the basics of the exploration and hacking system sin high sec, ie. leveling up, you will not be able to scan or hack most cans in null sec or w-space. So, while technically the exploration content in those areas is not hidden behind a typical hard wall like “you need to reach level Y to do X”, it’s hidden behind a soft wall of “You could do it but you won’t be successful. Do it in space A first because it’s easier there before you go to B for the harder, more rewarding sites.” > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > How you define progress may not be how others define progress. Eve is not a game with any objectives except the ones you set for yourself. > > And most players (and devs) define progress incorrectly. > > Trying to put it into a tutorial will be disastrous. Maybe CCP should put that bit in the tutorial. While you are doing your tutorial missions, Aura pops up and asks you in a nonchalant tone if she could give you some eve world advice for your future or tell you a short story about other capsuleers she educated in the past. You can decide if you want to hear her stories or not. If you do, she starts talking about how one guy left her in the cold, wanted to do their own thing, went into dangerous space, failed a few times in what they were trying to do and came back to receive the necessary introduction after all and then really took off more successfully. Or another person that finished living through her advice, then set out to experience the universe for themselves, started doing X, found some likeminded people or a corp doing that, joined and helped them grow out of high sec space into a low sec alliance and ultimately managed to dominate a market segment for a while. Stories like that. People could watch/listen to them while they are in station or autopilot to Jita (does the tutorial still suggest to turn on AP to get to places? Maybe that could be a story too about how to not do that everywhere without checking) or wait for skills to finish. People could get a better sense for what’s going on, how information and learning make a difference, how you can progress from one area to another, from one activity to another, from one aspect of the game to another. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 6:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/74 "2021-03-05T06:49:02Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > how you can progress from one area to another You don’t, each area is different with different rules. Habits learnt in one space won’t help you the same way in another. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 6:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/75 "2021-03-05T06:54:31Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Habits learnt in one space won’t help you the same way in another. Not all of them but you can build on previous experiences. The rules for each area are not that different as you think. While you do not technically have to watch your back in high sec when you go around and explore, you would still do well to know certain areas where people are trying to gank you if they notice that you carry a big booty in your cargo. The same principle of “learning about the area you go into” works in low and null sec. On top of learning about areas where impassible gatecamps take place very often, you learn another lesson after your first or second lost exploration frigate (this would be an experience that Aura already told you about in one of the story videos that you watched during the tutorial in addition to the career agent making you lose your ship. That way you know that it will happen and that it is perfectly normal) in an exploration site: Watch local, dscan often and check people in local for their activity on killboards. That could be a nice story video from Aura, too, after you lost your first exploration frigate in an exploration site and landed back in your schoolstation after you got podded. If EVE does not have progression in some areas that are similar to other games, we at least have experiences from the past that should be accessible to new players while they are being introduced to the game. Build on the “I was there” trailer or the “This is (really) EVE” trailer. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/76 "2021-03-05T07:02:56Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > I wonder what Dr. Eyjo would have to say about the current state of Eve’s economy. Probably that what CCP is attempting to do is really, really, really foolish. People have tried this IRL and it is typically a complete failure. Further, it may be bad for the game overall. This is a PvP game with a major focus on stuff going boom. Who is going to be more willing to risk stuff? The guy with a wallet with 10 billion in ISK or the guy with a wallet with 10 million in ISK and the price of stuff going up? And even if CCP does manage to reduce to some extent the wealth of the rich players, chances are it will be even worse for the not so rich players. A 10% reduction across the board is quite regressive. A guy with 150 billion sees his wealth drop to 135 billion. Meh…he’ll be fine. The guy with 300 million sees his wealth drop to 270 million. Tends to hurt alot more. And ironically to the extent that new players are also ISK poor players it may end up hurting retention. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/77 "2021-03-05T07:42:02Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > 300 million That is quite low. How can even people function like this? Maybe if corporation provides ships and srp only. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/78 "2021-03-05T07:55:01Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > That is quite low. How can even people function like this? You should dig up the average isk wealth graph, it’s a few years old now but the average EVE player has way less isk than you think, it is concentrated massively in the hands of a few. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 7:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/79 "2021-03-05T07:56:25Z")
Because those few people kept playing while most people that have “nothing” most likely stopped playing many years ago. Was this graph adjusted to exclude these chars? Sure, they still technically exist but do they matter if you compare active ISK, which is what this graph was about. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 8:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/80 "2021-03-05T08:20:39Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > the best thing Eve could do for the NPE is to help new players understand their progress against some absolute standard. Why? Did you have to pass a test when you started playing? ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/81 "2021-03-05T09:18:27Z")
While I do not care for the idea gauging players against an absolute standard, I do get where this person is coming from. I have been finding it very difficult of late to enjoy the MMO I do play, and it’s not because there’s anything wrong with the game, per se, but because of the way everyone wants to play it. Maybe I’ve been spoiled having played Eve for so long, but I just play games to play and don’t really care too much what the in game rewards are for any particular thing. As such, I like doing low level things, or high level things, or whatever else. My basic limitations are just that I don’t do PvP, duties that are stupid easy (Because players disable the level caps), or grinding of activities for rewards once it is no longer fun. The problem I’m having is finding people who want to do anything but grind or cheat their way through content. Systems have been introduced over time that streamline progression to the point people don’t really need help with anything, and even if they do help can be acquired from random matching systems. The end is no different from the beginning in Eve, though. We end up with a high level player who doesn’t know how to do his or her job properly but has some shiny equipment. I’m not any good at video games, but I know you don’t need super shiny gear to get the job done. I can do it, and I’m far too lazy to put in work to get shinies. I don’t want to work when I play games. I don’t want to ‘progress’ unless I do so in play. I progress as far as I feel like. Progression is hammered into players these days and they expect it like they expect a doorknob to rotate to open the door. People won’t even check to see if the door is a sliding door if there’s a doorknob on it, and in a similar vein, some people won’t give Eve a chance if they don’t see the progression they expect. I don’t think Eve should cater to these people specifically, but it could do a better job of presenting the options for career paths, giving them an NPC nudge to try them, and some idea of what taking their activities to the next level is. Thousands of years ago when I was riding those dinos to work, I didn’t feel Eve was all that different from other games. I grew up with games where winning was impossible unless you considered beating your personal high score a win. MMOs had strange systems like having to fiddle around with runes randomly to find out what combinations cast useful spells. There was no Google to feed me the answer to all those questions I had to figure out for myself. The Eve of yore’s new players entered the battlefield with an open mind to figure out the game like they always had. In this new dawn of easy answers and search engines telling people things they believe without questioning the source, it is easy for me to imagine that Eve will have to go to some extra effort to indoctrinate new players used to games where everything is spelled out for them letter by letter so that they know this is more of a creative writing class. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278.md?page=5)