# CCP Rattati on a stream talking about economy **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278 "2021-03-02T19:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/82 "2021-03-05T09:21:58Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > to help new players understand their progress against some absolute standard … one would need to make new players understand that in EvE Online they themselves set their own goals and that there is no standard. And no, it usually isn’t ISK, but stuff to do, ships to fly, roles to fulfill, influence to be gained, killboards to be filled. It’s a sandbox, you build castles and smash other castles. No one cares about how fat your personal wallet is, but what you do with what you have. And that is defined by your ambition, your long term goal, the progress along that path. Dare to dream. And then fight, tooth and nail, to realize that dream. That is EvE. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/83 "2021-03-05T09:41:01Z")
But you do make a very good case why setting level caps and targets is a bad idea for a game from an entertainment point of view, as opposed to a business. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 9:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/85 "2021-03-05T09:49:17Z")
Let’s see, a few of the biggest mistakes introduced into the game since 2015: rorqual mining, moon mining in hisec via Upwells, Orca mining in hisec. Talking about economy and adding new players into the equation (NPE mantra) without addressing those old mistakes except by band aid (adjust mineral content and bla bla) ? While holding events that pump ridiculous amounts of new ISK into the economy but hidden on the charts under “commodities” ? While the mineral index is literally off the charts and affecting all t1 ship prices (including those for “poor” rookies) ? Someone is dreaming… You don’t fix a broken leg by breaking an arm. Someone needs to tell ccp, lol ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/86 "2021-03-05T09:51:27Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > How you define progress may not be how others define progress. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > And most players (and devs) define progress incorrectly. Incorrectly compared to whom, you? You can’t say “people have different goals” and then say “your chosen goal is wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 10:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/87 "2021-03-05T10:02:25Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > progress [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/6/d/6/6d669fda2cf503c228029e762a89a42cb2474c57.jpeg "Eve Online: Progress") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SxKgmbqus) [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/c/7/dc7c1bec9b1cc046aa22a48bc5457e269608b47e.jpeg "EVE Online: Inferno Trailer") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kED11aGobUk) ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/88 "2021-03-05T10:09:57Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > The point is that they won’t be under any restrictions they weren’t under before. Because someone owned them before PA as well. According to recent news, in 2019 and 2020 they in fact _were_ under pressure to meet some (afaik undisclosed so far) performance goals, on which the final price of the PA sale would depend. (They failed.) Looking forward to this drastic change now that that’s over, tho. ---
**Author:** ![Ploing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ploing/32/466885_2.png) [@Ploing](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ploing)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/89 "2021-03-05T10:30:02Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > You don’t fix a broken leg by breaking an arm. Someone needs to tell ccp, lol if someone do they try to break your knees. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/90 "2021-03-05T10:32:02Z")
Use middle men, like the csm 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 10:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/91 "2021-03-05T10:57:13Z")
That is entirely intentional. Though at the same time I have to admit that I’m a relic of an earlier culture who need not concern herself with the business implications of insisting a game adhere to her preferences. What I wanted to point out was that people enter the arena with different expectations these days and that when expectations are not met folks will assume things are bad or broken. The NPE could mitigate this to some extent by adjusting those expectations early on before people make snap judgements. This is all under the assumption that I am in a position where I have to adjust some aspect of Eve to attract and retain new players. If I had to make a change, I would prefer trying to show why my game design works and how it is enjoyed over, for example, introducing items into a cash shop that temporarily circumvent my game design. If my game design was bad enough to make people pay to bypass it, I’d rather just change it outright so it didn’t suck in the first place. I’m not in a position where I have to make any money, though, so I can say whatever I want without consequence. I just know that from my position of ignorance the direction things are going doesn’t look good to me and CCP isn’t going to put in the effort as the only authority on the subject who is not ignorant to educate me to believe otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/92 "2021-03-05T13:11:06Z")
> [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](#): > > in EVE, you cannot compare it to other games… EVE is a dragonfruit in a sea of apples and oranges. This is anti-consumer thinking. Consumers, particularly new players, always compare games. To pretend otherwise is to deny reality. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/93 "2021-03-05T13:12:20Z")
> [@Wadiest\_Yong](#): > > … one would need to make new players understand that in EvE Online they themselves set their own goals and that there is no standard. There absolutely is progress. To deny that is nothing more than typical bitter vet posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/94 "2021-03-05T13:13:30Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Why? Did you have to pass a test when you started playing? Nope. But I did feel a sense of progress. And I imagine you did as well. Eve is no different than any other organization. You have to balance between core values and what is needed by the current crop of consumers/employees. If you want to thrive that is. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/95 "2021-03-05T13:15:16Z")
You keep creating strawmen. I never said there were going to be classes. Most people define themselves by their accomplishments and most people rate themselves relatively…happens from school age on. But keep thinking Eve can ignore human behavior…maybe you’ll be proven right…exceptions often prove the rule ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/96 "2021-03-05T13:23:11Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > Nope. But I did feel a sense of progress. And I imagine you did as well. Yeah exactly, and I didnt need to pass goals set by others, I was and am perfectly caable of doing it myself, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/97 "2021-03-05T13:53:40Z")
And to nurture that thinking, I would say that showing newbies first hand experiences from other people who came before them could be a neat way to showcase what is possible, _that_ it is possible and how to achieve it. More community involvement instead of sterile tutorials. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/98 "2021-03-05T14:43:57Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Yeah exactly, and I didnt need to pass goals set by others, I was and am perfectly caable of doing it myself, is all. I’m sure that makes you a better person than most. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/99 "2021-03-05T15:00:09Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > but without first training some skills and learning at least the basics of the exploration and hacking system sin high sec, ie. leveling up, you will not be able to scan or hack most cans in null sec or w-space. I can train skills whilst doing something else and i can read guides rather than doing anything in hisec. If that’s what you want to call progression, CCP already acknowledge that by showing what skills unlock what equipment. A ship tree tells players which ships are sequentially unlocked (though you don’t need to buy an Astero before you can use a Stratios so it wouldn’t be right to tell people that’s how to progress) But really, is nullsec and wormholes the end game of exploration? Many ‘explorers’ may not have interest in going to such areas of space. They may explore in hi-sec and low-sec because they are ready to form a fleet at a moments notice. Does that mean they haven’t progressed as a player? > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > Stories like that I am massively supportive of players telling ‘their’ story. A thread started by @ShahFluffers that asks how vets started out is a genuinely good read. Maybe CCP devs could support something like that, because it is the players that make eve after all. > **["How did you Veterans start?" - EVE New Citizens Q&A - EVE Online Forums](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/topic/331515/)** > > EVE allows you to discover, explore and dominate an amazing science fiction universe while you fight, trade, form corporations and alliances with other players. I don’t know about aura making ‘pretend’ stories about eve because it doesn’t really hit home with the players. The career agents try to prepare players for the inevitability of death by forcing them to lose ships in two tutorial missions. But that doesn’t seem to help players deal with losses once they’re out in the real sandbox though. > [@Xanthellus](#): > > You can’t say “people have different goals” and then say “your chosen goal is wrong”. I’m not telling people their goals are wrong. I’m saying people (and devs) define progression incorrectly and will try to tell you what progression is. Like some people define progression as living in more dangerous space. They will pressure you to head to null as though it is some kind of development of your character. But this isn’t progression as much as choice. Flying bigger ships. Training speed. Wealth income. All the same. Choice, not progression. @Nana_Skalski exactly. That video is pretty meaningless to anyones individual circumstances. > [@Flanidia](#): > > Consumers, particularly new players, always compare games. So what happens when people compare a Gordon Ramsay restaurant to McDonald’s? Just because the comparison is made doesn’t mean anything needs to be done about it. > [@Flanidia](#): > > You keep creating strawmen. I never said there were going to be classes. But you invited it by bringing in the ‘history of gaming’. > [@Flanidia](#): > > Most people define themselves by their accomplishments and most people rate themselves relatively…happens from school age on. Exactly. Not as given to them by the game. If the game tells us what our progress and ‘path’ is as you suggest (like the history of gaming did’, that is not people defining themselves. It would be the game defining them. Thankyou for finally understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/100 "2021-03-05T15:30:14Z")
And by extension yourself, if thats how you choose to view it. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/101 "2021-03-05T15:32:25Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Not as given to them by the game. If the game tells us what our progress and ‘path’ is as you suggest (like the history of gaming did’, that is not people defining themselves. It would be the game defining them. As given to them by something. In the absence of it, there’s no sense of progression, which matters to people even if it doesn’t matter to you. ---
**Author:** ![Flanidia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flanidia/32/264223_2.png) [@Flanidia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flanidia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278/102 "2021-03-05T15:32:44Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > And by extension yourself, if thats how you choose to view it. Actually, it’s how you choose to view it but ymmv. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rattati-on-a-stream-talking-about-economy/298278.md?page=6)