# CCP rise - we could balance abyssal mods by adjusting stats on base modules **URL:** \ **Category:** Upcoming Features & Changes\ **Created:** [April 28, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068 "2018-04-28T19:38:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/161 "2018-04-30T10:57:14Z")
Thanks. One less thing atleast to worry about. Albeit that then inversly favors Drone ships, which rely on tank/speed more so than direct damage ships. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/162 "2018-04-30T16:19:47Z")
Ok, listened the interview. I never heard biggest bull\*\*\*\* coming for a developer. Basically CCP want to expand the usage of the modules, so to lower their prices (because nobody will use officer modules) they introducing rng mechanism that will randomly create better module from the cheap ones. Rise said pvp is already complex but they want it to be even more by expanding the current strenght/range of the modules. So they basically throw away 15 year of building universe economy to rng mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/163 "2018-04-30T16:33:23Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Technetium bottleneck, carrier ratting, BPO lottery etc all imbalanced and “nerfed” later, once the damage was already done. Yes, I too like to ■■■■■ about things in hindsight to pretend I’m truly brilliant. Given your statement you should oppose any and all changes because recognizing when something is going to be OP is not easy ex ante. Drone assist was in game forever before it became a problem. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > That’s the optimistic case - that things get abused, and that CCP steps in within some reasonable time frame, and somehow does a correct rebalance. You too should oppose any and all change as well. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/164 "2018-04-30T17:16:49Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > Market are adapteive, supply in this game is not. This is not correct. At all. Here, lets use a little model. Jeremiah likes to supply X to the market and he is the only one. Jeremiah spends 3 hours doing this. and in the course of those 3 hours he bring 3 units of X to the market. Along somes Salvos who sees that Jeremiah is making good ISK and decides to supply X too. Now there are 6 units of X on the market. Hmmm…looks like supply just increased. In fact, more people join and each of these people have different opportunity cost of time. So as the price of X goes up and down people will likely vary how much time they allocate towards supplying X to the market. So no. Your claim that supply is fixed is not valid except in very rare cases. What you are essentially saying is that supply in game is perfectly price inelastic which is very unusual. If you are hinging your views on this you are going to arrive at incorrect conclusions. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > GSF abbadoned doctrice because supply couldn’t match demand (and the mechanism behind how we could get the hull is not that simple), RL market would just adjust. The problem was that the price was going very high because of that surge in demand…which is exactly how markets adapt. Give it enough time then farming/supplying TFI’s would have likely increased reducing the price. GSF just didn’t want to wait that long. The role of prices is to convey information and allow people to adapt to the changing conditions of the market process. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > Now as I wrote, content will be created by players, by opening filament, supply of abyssal items will be enormous. Maybe. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > For example for 3 hours session I can find 1 site and have no luck at all on drops, in that time I can do 12 abyssal pockets. Okay? > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > It’s not like missions, where salvage can be obtained from other sources. And? What is the point of this comment. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > CCP want mutagen to be widely used, and good rolls don’t be rare. Maybe. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > On that base I don’t think I’m assuming a lot. Looks like you are assuming alot to me. > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > Either way it will go wrong, overfarmed mutagens will change module market in a bad way, not enough supply will make them expensive which is pointless from creating new shake off for the pvp. Sooo…there will be an enormous supply of mutagens, “good rolls” won’t be rare…and yet there won’t be enough supply on the market and prices will be sky high? Sorry, that is just incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/165 "2018-04-30T19:18:21Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > > [@Beast of Revelations](#): > > > > That’s the optimistic case - that things get abused, and that CCP steps in within some reasonable time frame, and somehow does a correct rebalance. > > You too should oppose any and all change as well. What did I say that was irrational, or not true? Choosing to not have blinders on is not the same thing as knee-jerk opposition of change for no good reason. I don’t oppose any and all change. I oppose what I perceive to be ill-conceived change, bad change, stupid change, change that adds new stuff when the changer can’t even balance or get old stuff done correctly, change where the changer cannot be trusted to implement the change, change which follows a known historical pattern of a bad outcome, etc. The carrier nerf was a bad change, thus I opposed it. Fixing T3C was a _good_ change - I _supported_ it, but the point there was, 1) it took years for it to happen, and 2) the job still isn’t done. I _wasn’t_ opposed to tiericide, which was a pretty huge change, and in general I haven’t had any problems with it. I _was_ opposed to nerfing battleships. I _fully support_ the upcoming QoL changes to PI, and I trust CCP to do that right. CCP did a great job on the probe/scanning QoL changes a while back, and I _fully supported_ that. I _like_ the new map (which some people don’t like). Etc. In short, I evaluate each change separately. Here, with the developer statements of “meh, we’ll just nerf base modules so as to cram these square RNG modules down a round hole and make them fit” - you’d have to be crazy to support this, in my opinion. I also tend to hate RNG of any kind in pretty much all games, but especially games which are supposed to be based on skill or strategy. In Eve I’m perfectly willing to tolerate randomness in what position I spawn off of a gate. I’m less willing to tolerate it in things like combat mechanics, economics, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/166 "2018-04-30T19:24:24Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > What did I say that was irrational, or not true? Choosing to not have blinders on is not the same thing as knee-jerk opposition of change for no good reason. Really? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I’ll do you one better. If you can’t be trusted to balance non-RNG, how the hell are you going to balance RNG? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Of course we all know that won’t happen. The more likely case is that things are screwed up for years, and then CCP comes in with some half-measure that doesn’t get the job done. I mean, how is balance now? How long did it take them to attempt to fix strategic cruisers? And what was the result of that effort? > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I’ll say it again: people who nerf carriers in PvP because there’s an economic problem in PvE, and people who would consider nerfing mainline modules so they could cram in the RNG modules, are not to be trusted with balance, much less anything else. This is gonna be a disaster. Seems pretty clear. That CCP can do nothing right. Ever. So…it would seem reasonable in light of this to oppose all change. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/167 "2018-04-30T19:36:54Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Seems pretty clear. That CCP can do nothing right. Ever. So…it would seem reasonable in light of this to oppose all change. Re-read my post. I spelled out many instances where CCP did something right by my appraisal. You seem to be a rational enough fellow from what I have read of your posts on these forums. You seem articulate and well-spoken enough, and tend to present cases and arguments well enough - certainly better than most. Actually, whether I agree with him on most things or not (I haven’t bothered to keep score), I can mostly say the same of @Salvos_Rhoska as well. Anyway, re-read what I wrote. You certainly have good enough reading comprehension ability to understand that I don’t just knee-jerk oppose change just for the sake of opposing it. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/168 "2018-04-30T20:07:25Z")
That’s good. And regarding RNGs, these are in EVE already. Hit chance relies on RNG, same with turret damage, and the same with T2 invention. ECM uses an RNG. Loot drops rely on an RNG too. Are these things all unbalanced? ---
**Author:** ![krakpipe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krakpipe/32/61065_2.png) [@krakpipe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/krakpipe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/169 "2018-04-30T20:57:17Z")
hmm, can you pay isk and re roll another hit if the damage was not to your liking… didn’t think so ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/170 "2018-04-30T20:59:01Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > So no. Your claim that supply is fixed is not valid except in very rare cases. What you are essentially saying is that supply in game is perfectly price inelastic which is very unusual. If you are hinging your views on this you are going to arrive at incorrect conclusions. supply is fixed for items that comes from rng drops like faction BPC hulls, DED modules, materials. So Teckos\_Pech do not want to build certain T2 mods because DED couterparts are overfarmed and cheaper. CCP nerfed drops for machariels not so long time ago. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Sooo…there will be an enormous supply of mutagens, “good rolls” won’t be rare…and yet there won’t be enough supply on the market and prices will be sky high? sorry, it’s my third language and I’m not good at it it will be either: overfarmed mutagens will change module market in a bad way (redundant faction/deds) or not enough supply will make them expensive which is pointless from creating new shake off for the pvp. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/171 "2018-04-30T21:01:12Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > And regarding RNGs, these are in EVE already. Hit chance relies on RNG, same with turret damage, and the same with T2 invention. ECM uses an RNG. Loot drops rely on an RNG too. Are these things all unbalanced? They aren’t unbalanced, and I accept that this is in the game to the extent that it is. What I said was, I’d prefer less of it rather than more. Look, everything is on a continuum - a spectrum if you will. On one end you have pure gambling, with no thinking or skill involved at all - like betting on dice rolls or playing cards or whatever. On the other end you have pure determinism, pure skill, pure strategy and thinking, etc. (think chess or whatever). Eve is somewhere between these two extremes on the spectrum. With any changes, I’d rather it gravitate more towards the determinism/skill/etc. end of the spectrum rather than the other way. What’s the crime in that? If I wanted to gamble, I’d go to Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![Perkutor\_Jakuard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/perkutor_jakuard/32/498809_2.png) [@Perkutor\_Jakuard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Perkutor_Jakuard)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/172 "2018-04-30T22:34:25Z")
I think those modules will have drawbacks also, so they will not be the new standard as easy as we think. How much capacitor will draw a +20% mwd ? Does a cap hungry ship like the slicer able to fit it ? Does it have fitting penalties ? pwd/ cpu ? Would you fit a 10m ab on a slasher, maybe if it makes you win, but a 25m ab ? ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/173 "2018-04-30T22:42:54Z")
> [@Perkutor\_Jakuard](#): > > I think those modules will have drawbacks also What we see now on SiSi, no, there are no forced drawbacks for benefits on other attributes, so all-good rolls are possible. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/174 "2018-04-30T22:46:02Z")
> [@krakpipe](#): > > hmm, can you pay isk and re roll another hit if the damage was not to your liking… didn’t think so I can with T2 invention. Is that unbalanced? ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/175 "2018-04-30T23:29:03Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > supply is fixed for items that comes from rng drops like faction BPC hulls, DED modules, materials. No, not really. What if more people start doing them? Is every site being run right now? And how are respawns determined? Once you run a site when does a new one spawn? > [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > sorry, it’s my third language and I’m not good at it > > it will be either: > overfarmed mutagens will change module market in a bad way (redundant faction/deds) > or > not enough supply will make them expensive which is pointless from creating new shake off for the pvp. Thanks for the clarification. Yes, those are possibilities. And this has happened to some extent before. I used to run DED sites in HS. IIRC it was corelli c-type stuff that would sometimes drop, the MWDs were nice for a newb as they sold for like 25 million ISK. Now most of that stuff is worth much, much less. ---
**Author:** ![krakpipe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krakpipe/32/61065_2.png) [@krakpipe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/krakpipe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/176 "2018-04-30T23:40:17Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > T2 invention That’s literally that only nearly comparable example of the ones you gave and even then, considering that all T2 MWDs have exactly the same stats and perform in exactly the same way, I’d say that it’s not really an apples to apples comparison. Now, if mutaplasmids gave a %chance at a single better variation, with the stats altered in the same way, every single time and not to levels outstripping any mod currently in the game, then yeah, comparable, but hey… we wouldn’t be having this discussion about balance if that was the proposal would we. ---
**Author:** ![krakpipe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krakpipe/32/61065_2.png) [@krakpipe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/krakpipe)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/177 "2018-04-30T23:45:19Z")
MWD speed change will be capped at 10% in either direction, that’s 2 reduction since the announcement, pretty hopeful on game balance if they scale all the changes back this much, webs range and strength definitely need this. Still, definitely better, just wish they’d ditch the gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/178 "2018-04-30T23:55:50Z")
> [@krakpipe](#): > > That’s literally that only nearly comparable example of the ones you gave and even then, considering that all T2 MWDs have exactly the same stats and perform in exactly the same way, I’d say that it’s not really an apples to apples comparison. So what was the point of your question then? My point wasn’t that the RNG in determining hit chance is going to be the same as with mutaplasmids, but that it is an RNG process which Beast of Revelations tends to dislike. As for this it all depends on a number of factors we just don’t have much information on at this moment. ---
**Author:** ![krakpipe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/krakpipe/32/61065_2.png) [@krakpipe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/krakpipe)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/179 "2018-05-01T00:02:32Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > And regarding RNGs, these are in EVE already. Hit chance relies on RNG, same with turret damage, and the same with T2 invention. ECM uses an RNG. Loot drops rely on an RNG too. Are these things all unbalanced? pretty clear comparison you are attempting to draw there, between our fears of mutated mods being unbalanced and a lot of other incomparable RNG mechanics that already exist in game. If you weren’t implying that these RNGs being ok mean that abysal mods would be too, you wasted quite of lot of letter to say nothing ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/180 "2018-05-01T00:11:36Z")
> [@krakpipe](#): > > pretty clear comparison you are attempting to draw there, between our fears of mutated mods being unbalanced and a lot of other incomparable RNG mechanics that already exist in game. No, not really. That is you reading between the lines. FYI, I was responding to [this post](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068/165). And in particular this line, > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > I also tend to hate RNG of any kind in pretty much all games, but especially games which are supposed to be based on skill or strategy. In Eve I’m perfectly willing to tolerate randomness in what position I spawn off of a gate. I’m less willing to tolerate it in things like combat mechanics, economics, etc. But do continue to mislead and misrepresent. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-rise-we-could-balance-abyssal-mods-by-adjusting-stats-on-base-modules/73068.md?page=10)