# CCP Totally Failed it's Hsec players **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2024, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970 "2024-01-30T17:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/304 "2024-02-09T11:33:44Z")
Exactly. No one is entitled to be left alone while krabbing in the most crowded areas. Want to avoid contact to gankers? Go where gankers are rare. Easy solution, EVE offers enough space to go. ---
**Author:** ![Dchill](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dchill/32/408523_2.png) [@Dchill](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dchill)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/305 "2024-02-09T11:34:35Z")
Not sure what you mean ---
**Author:** ![Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/princess_rose_ivory/32/433985_2.png) [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Princess_Rose_Ivory)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/306 "2024-02-09T12:38:46Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > Star Trek Online? Has to be the worst spaceship combat sim ever - to fly down, you have to fly on rails in a spiral 😁 Yes THIS space flight sim is much better, no doubt about it. Star Trek Online (STO) has its roots from another game I played City of Heroes (COH) the developer failed STO when they didn’t bother making a new engine for the new game. It is only my opinion, CBS should have sued. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Genuine question: are you being serious? Yes I am serious. Without getting to deep into my own personal life - which according to my husband, I share too much online already - I was a state certified psychologist for a medium security correctional facility for several years. One of the many hats I wore in life. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > If yes, I have a follow up question: are you for the handing out of gold medals to all participants in high school and university and professional sports leagues regardless of performance? Don’t feel like these are directed only at you. You and others here are reading your personal thoughts into my statements. You are looking at this assuming I am attacking Eve and you are rushing to its defense. I am not. Many times sports leagues hire professionals to assist their team members, who are suffering issues coping with anger and stress. I attend sporting events and can enjoy them. Fans of sporting events tend to get aggressive and most will shout out obscenities at the players and referees. It is only on occasion, they get so aggressive, they will form a mob and riot at these events. It doesn’t mean we need the fun police to stop these events or cast blame on the game. We do need to know when to control ourselves and _drawing the line in the sand_ was the terminology I used. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > Why does Eve Online get to be on the “other side” of “the line in the sand” that you arbitrarily declare as being harmful? Where did I place sole focus on Eve here? Where did I say it was all the game’s fault? You are viewing one statement and ignoring; _All PvP is highly competitive._ When one is getting emotional about any game, it is time to take a break and reflect upon yourself and not project on others and blame inanimate objects. We all do this to some degree. Anyone who has stubbed a toe would rather cast the blame the object they hit or kicked rather than their own actions. It is not the hammer that hit your thumb. Who is holding the hammer? I stated the following somewhere on the forum before in another topic; While I am a student of both Freud and Jung, it was Freud who stated, _inhibitions disappear in groups, allowing the unconscious Id to express itself in its primitive form._ This is why people will say things online, they would never say straight to your face. It was probably also why Freud practiced couch therapy. When we are allowed to be anonymous, the Ego part of us that is the sum total of our desire, is not held as accountable by the rules of society. Now one last thing, I hope no one felt ignored by what I have said here. I am not focusing my comments at any individual. I really think the Harley Quinn memes are kind of funny response taking into account her chosen profession was psychology. No one is immune. It is only game. Have fun! ---
**Author:** ![Ozuwara\_Aviai\_Yanumano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ozuwara_aviai_yanumano/32/398892_2.png) [@Ozuwara\_Aviai\_Yanumano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ozuwara_Aviai_Yanumano)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/307 "2024-02-09T12:42:19Z")
My attention span is too trash to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/princess_rose_ivory/32/433985_2.png) [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Princess_Rose_Ivory)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/308 "2024-02-09T12:45:41Z")
Good answer, go to the head of the class! 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/309 "2024-02-09T12:46:34Z")
> [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > Fans of sporting events tend to get aggressive and most will shout out obscenities at the players and referees. You’re getting all loosey-goosey with your logic here. How about actually quantifying the incidence rate for your claims? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/310 "2024-02-09T13:36:43Z")
> [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > You are looking at this assuming I am attacking Eve You are. Or did you forget the entire thread of conversation above, or are just ignoring perspectives that aren’t your own? You opened with: > [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > The community is to blame for “bad sports”. PvP games in general attract large amounts of “I want to be the bad guy” players. > [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > This game is overtly full of gankers, while it is your choice to be a white hat or a black hat, allow me to remind the black hats about something. Which for any reader, is pretty much a nod-and-a-wink that the EvE community is “Bad Sports”. You spend a lot of words about “a generic community is to be blamed for Bad Sports” because of the “‘I want to be the bad guy’ players” and right off the back of _that_ “I was talking about games in general” paragraph you go straight into “_This specific_ game is full of gankers (and it’s _my duty_ to remind them of something)” – noting that “game full of gankers” is objectively false, but a well-known propaganda line of anti-PvP crowd that wants to get rid of PvP game mechanics – so it is no surprise that [you got called out for this](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/270). You didn’t even address being called out. You deflected into a [“Eve Online doesn’t hold the exclusive rights to this sort of game play. It is present in all PvP games.”](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/274), ignoring the fact that you just called the Eve Online community “overtly gankers” and spent a lot of words talking about “[any generic game should be] blaming the community for Bad Sports”. So when you ask: > [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > Where did I place sole focus on Eve here? Where did I say it was all the game’s fault? Please read the above: you didn’t say it was “the game Eve Online’s” fault, you said it was _the Eve Online community’s_ fault. And some of the community members just happen to post on the forums. * * * As an aside, we as a forum community also get a lot of armchair diagnoses from self-proclaimed psychologists. You can search the forum history for those threads. It is generally poorly received here. For example, your quoting of Freud raises huge red flags. My mother happens to be a psychologist who provided services at a municipal corrections facility specifically for dealing with substance abuse addiction, and it’s well-known in the field of clinical psychology that Freud’s work is best viewed in a historic lens as most of his work of substance – including your _Id_, _Ego_, and _Superego_ – are woefully antiquated. I assure you, if we met in person, I would feel comfortable enough to say all the above to you. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/311 "2024-02-09T14:45:07Z")
> [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > I was a state certified psychologist for a medium security correctional facilit > [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > which according to my husband, I share too much online already You just did. As a phsycologist you should know better. The next stage will be to complain about online bullying using real life info that you couldn’t help youself divulging. Now in real life, I am serial killer that was brought up by blood sucking kangeroos, but you don’t hear me telling anyone about that now , do you? ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/2/d/e2da6f6f673566f5acd125631cb5ca7ad805e1e8.gif) Your logic is delicious ---
**Author:** ![Roackof12](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roackof12/32/410542_2.png) [@Roackof12](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Roackof12)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/312 "2024-02-09T19:32:30Z")
Long thread but I would offer that it isn’t PvP or gankers. It is that the game doesn’t have (can it?) a good mechanism to let people ramp up their pvp skills. It doesn’t have means to segregate players on skills, SP, (and the closely related aspect of fits). And so you have tier 3 ships blasting tier 1s. It isn’t clear what the fun of htat it but, far more important, is that it provides limited (no?) opportunities for the tier 1s to learn. Analogies are difficult but one I will try is putting a Junior High School football team up against an NFL one. The JHS players just don’t learn much. They can have the best blocking techniques in the world but the 200 lb difference is determinative. They can run the best pass routes ever and the speed of grown men is determative. And they don’t even learn much by watching because the vast difference is ability mean the NFL teams simply can half ass and still dominate. Been at this now for about a year. I like a lot of things about the game. Social interaction is really great. But I think that this core aspect of the design is stupidly broken and it encourages CPP to focus on niche players and fairly unethical business models (suggesting RL $ is a way of competing when it really isn’t because of the positive correlation between Sklll/SP & ISK and thus the ability to multibox plex at a certain stage of your eve career. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/313 "2024-02-09T20:43:40Z")
> [@Princess\_Rose\_Ivory](#): > > I was a state certified psychologist for a medium security correctional facility for several years What a small world. I’ve been in a medium security correctional facility for the past several years. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/314 "2024-02-09T21:09:37Z")
> [@Roackof12](#): > > It is that the game doesn’t have (can it?) a good mechanism to let people ramp up their pvp skills. It doesn’t have means to segregate players on skills, SP, (and the closely related aspect of fits). And so you have tier 3 ships blasting tier 1s. It isn’t clear what the fun of htat it but, far more important, is that it provides limited (no?) opportunities for the tier 1s to learn. In my experience, the viewpoint you’re expressing comes from a mindset that seems most obvious to rookies. I don’t blame them. It makes sense for other games, why wouldn’t it make sense for Eve? You don’t know what you don’t know so it feels „obvious“ that a T2 or T3 automatically equals a leg up over a T1. A person has been playing longer or has more SP, that „must“ also mean they have a leg up. But there’s the rub. This is a sandbox, not a resetting match based game with ELO ratings. With enough experience in Eve Online you realize this „unfairness“ fundamental to the game. There’s always a bigger fish out there. Someone who has already spent _20 years_ here before you. Someone who can field better modules than you, better hulls, call upon more friends for a bigger fleet, can cyno drop on you, at greater range than you, and with more supers than you. They can plex more accounts because they’re wealthy IRL and can multibox like a god. The key part is breaking out of the „if only I had X better“ mentality. A rookie might feel like they’re behind in player skill, SP, and wealth for bling modules. Ok, so you give the rookie in a T3 hull. Now they’re an ignoramous killmail-in-waiting and _many_ other people can blast them to bits with a T1 hull. So, simply stop wasting time waiting and thinking „If only I had X.“ Spar and lose with the ships your SP has access to _now_ and — maybe — gain enough knowledge to score kills as well. Loss is guaranteed and it’s up to rookies to learn from it. A loss is a failure if you learned nothing from it. A good community goes a long way here. Sometimes you’ll identify things you _could_ try next time and that should inform your Skill Plan and get excited for building versatility. The last thing I’ll say is this: I once spent a few days mentoring a brand new rookie in Eve to FW PvP. We each had 1 alpha account that used around 650,000 SP of the 1M free each. He flew a Rifter and I a slasher and our first kill was a 250M ISK blingy Punisher. He got over 100M in loot if I remember right. He told me he was trying other activities on other alpha accounts but this kill was his highest ISK income of anything he tried. So the rookies who „keep waiting to PvP if only they had begun playing 20 years ago instead so it was a level playing field“ will be waiting until time travel is invented. They have fallen into a trap. The only way out is to say „Fuuuuck that“ and buy and lose a lot of cheap hulls. Edit: CCP does have shady business practices that undermines the above mentality needed to thrive, but I view it as a separate and distinct issue. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/315 "2024-02-09T21:41:22Z")
Perhaphs she can cure you of your uncontrollable urge to gank. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/316 "2024-02-09T21:46:24Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > A person has been playing longer or has more SP, that „must“ also mean they have a leg up. The goons disproved this theory long ago with thier t1 frigate swarms. ---
**Author:** ![Aiko\_Danuja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aiko_danuja/32/481237_2.png) [@Aiko\_Danuja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aiko_Danuja)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/317 "2024-02-09T21:52:22Z")
Once I beat a whinebaby, and they said “You only won because you used noob tactics”. ---
**Author:** ![Lucky\_Bustard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucky_bustard/32/410447_2.png) [@Lucky\_Bustard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucky_Bustard)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/318 "2024-02-09T22:11:12Z")
> [@Zaera\_Keena](#): > > with thier t1 frigate swarms. “Swarms” is the key here. ---
**Author:** ![Azazod](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/azazod/32/336190_2.png) [@Azazod](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Azazod)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/319 "2024-02-09T22:13:54Z")
The sooner CCP does away with hi sec, the better off everyone will be. ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/320 "2024-02-09T22:14:32Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > So, simply stop wasting time waiting and thinking „If only I had X.“ Spar and lose with the ships your SP has access to _now_ and — maybe — gain enough knowledge to score kills as well. Loss is guaranteed and it’s up to rookies to learn from it. I keep hearing this…it has almost passed down as unquestioned lore. But I simply don’t believe it applies in most cases. What is a player going to have a ’ Oh yes…I should have fitted or done XYZ and then I’d have won ’ moment for _after_ a fight that he couldn’t have had before ? Why would losing a ship suddenly, in and of itself, light up some eureka light bulb ? The loss itself is simply a loss. If the victor explains some new tactic after the event then maybe there’s a benefit…but the simple act of losing does not in itself confer some new wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Roackof12](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roackof12/32/410542_2.png) [@Roackof12](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Roackof12)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/321 "2024-02-09T22:16:42Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > So, simply stop wasting time waiting and thinking „If only I had X.“ Spar and lose with the ships your SP has access to _now_ and — maybe — gain enough knowledge to score kills as well. Loss is guaranteed and it’s up to rookies to learn from it. But this misreads (intentially?) my point. It is FINE that there are bigger fish. Again, that doesn’t matter. It is that there is VERY little to be learned (which include looking at the blog) from a fight that is over in 5 seconds. Lets say that 80% of encounters are that way. Worse is that 80% of them are variations on a that theme - from getting wacked by a tier 3 to 12 ship multi-boxer to an 8 shiip roam. Nearly every (other) game not run by a lazy company figures out tht they need some sort of early stage friendly “proving ground”. Names will vary. But the point is that we learn as a species by doing. One is not doing when they die without much (any?) feedback in 5 seconds. It is a flaw. ---
**Author:** ![Roackof12](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roackof12/32/410542_2.png) [@Roackof12](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Roackof12)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/322 "2024-02-09T22:20:33Z")
> [@Altara\_Zemara](#): > > What is a player going to have a ’ Oh yes…I should have fitted or done XYZ and then I’d have won ’ moment for _after_ a fight that he couldn’t have had before ? Why would losing a ship suddenly, in and of itself, light up some eureka light bulb ? The loss itself is simply a loss. If the victor explains some new tactic after the event then maybe there’s a benefit…but the simple act of losing does not in itself confer some new wisdom. THIS!!! Yes, if someone is cool and willing to unpack what happened then there is a significant learning moment. So far I would say that is the minority. Most either are silent or “GG! LMAO nob!!” Again, if the encounter log provided real data rather than simply damage x from weapon Y then there could be analysis after the fact. But instead it is saying 'Well my tristen fit was about 20MISK and their super stealthy destroyer that had a super cloack was about a 900M fit that would take 90 days to skill into. Wonder what I could have done." ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2024, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/323 "2024-02-09T22:52:01Z")
A big issue is that EVE never had any degree of combat balancing aside from ensuring that the numbers line up for ships and modules within similar tiers. But on a more “meta” level, there’s nothing that guides players into certain engagements over others. For example, CCP could bind loot drop chances to the number of involved parties to a kill. While a 1-on-1 fight could result in a drop chance that approaches 100%, a 100-on-1 fight would result in a drop chance that approaches 0%. It makes sense too, because if you take someone down with a single well-placed bullet, most of their stuff would still be usable, but if you take someone down with a hundred artillery shells, they will basically be atomized. Another is a lack of point-defense systems and force-multipliers that would allow single large targets to be more effective against swarms of smaller targets, but still be relatively ineffective against smaller numbers of smaller targets (e.g. the way flak cannons work). There are no tactical considerations in EVE that make various realistic asymmetric strategies work. It’s always been the case that the best and only plan is to bring more guys than the other side, because it’s guaranteed to work, 100% of the time, always. This is why we have mega-coalitions of multiple 10,000-30,000 alliances fielding 5,000-player fleets now. Even in high-sec we went from having hundreds of little 5-player groups doing wars to one coalition that can place 300 heavy battleships on the field on short notice. There’s no way for solo players and small groups to compete, and that’s something that CCP ensured through 20 years of changes intended to create pretty pictures of big fleets that they can use for marketing propaganda. How is anyone supposed to be able to learn in this kind of environment? At least in 2005, when alliances had a few hundred members at most and 100-player fleets were taken out for special occasions, it was somewhat workable in absolute terms. But today? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970.md?page=17)