# CCP Totally Failed it's Hsec players **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2024, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970 "2024-01-30T17:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/683 "2024-03-09T17:57:32Z")
> [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](#): > > Because it’s Silent Company. The poster child for mass invite hi sec alliances that don’t actually teach their players anything True. Then completely and utterly asteroid-level-dumb nonsense. Why are you so hostile? ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/684 "2024-03-09T18:04:01Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Oh, so they are complaining because they don’t learn how the game works and get constantly beaten by people who learned how the game works and they don’t like that experiece of “losing”? Thank god they didn’t try… Chess. Come on, dude. Don’t take what trolls say as truth. I thought I was clear about my reasons for complaining, and there is nothing in there that suggests I don’t know how the game works, is there. I’m not an expert yet in all game mechanics, but I don’t need to be in order to make the observations I make about player behavior. My qualms have to do with player behavior and CCP’s choice to not make changes that would encourage more prosocial behavior rather than griefing behavior. I’ve also spoken at length already about the difference between predator/prey gaming and consensual pvp like chess, so perhaps you can get back to more productive discussion instead of disparagement. ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/685 "2024-03-09T18:09:31Z")
Nobody? Want to reconsider that assertion? Some of us actually put thought into what we say instead of vomiting. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/686 "2024-03-09T18:27:59Z")
![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/7/9/c/79ce190a2ee022f677116cfd7de4b09f74acf361.webp) ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/687 "2024-03-09T18:37:17Z")
There’s a lot to unpack there, but I don’t want to address the entire text wall, so I’ll select a few points I consider to be the most important. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > an important thing to understand about my framework is that I believe that all humans deserve the same amount of respect from eachother at baseline, their actions affect other people in positive and negative ways, and nobody is immune from consequences of their actions. This is a role-playing video game, and not real life. The requisite amount of respect that players give to each other is playing within the outlined rules of the game. Anything else is the imposition of personal moral standards that don’t belong here. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > The system I’m describing, one where Predator/Prey relationships can exist after consent, does and can exist. Tag is a form of consensual predator prey. Hide and seek is a form of consensual predator/prey. The only difference is that we both agree on the rules of HIde and Seek and we both agree on the rules of Tag. When we don’t, and instead of tapping your victim on the shoulder and yelling “tag, your it!” you push them down into a puddle, people get into fights. I was not suggesting that consensual predator/prey behavior SHOULD exist in EVE, I was only saying that _IF_ predator/prey gameplay exists in eve, that it should be consensual. If we both agree that it should be consensual, _then_ the next step is thinking of a design where it could be consensual. The games you’re describing have an entirely different framework compared to EVE. You’ve chosen simple games that have no element of risk attached to them. A more apt comparison would’ve been to compare EVE to Poker, where people wager real-life money that they can win or lose. Would you complain about a lack of respect if you lost at Poker, and had to pay your opponent? Would you request for the design of the game to be reconsidered? Comparing EVE to tag or hide-and-seek is a very intellectually-dishonest attempt at diplomacy on your part. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > personally? Totally depends on if there is some reward in it for me or if the act of being pursued is fun in and of itself, as it is in games like hide and seek. But your proposed pvp toggle solution has some challenges to it that i’m not sure would achieve either of our desired goals. I’m sure we could think of something better if we share the same end goals. You’re avoiding the question. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > I see a reaction from vocal individuals who laugh at the idea that consent to being prey is missing, and put the blame on victims for having very negative experiences in this game Your consent to being prey is given by virtue of agreeing to the terms of service of the game before you start playing it. The game has rules that all players must follow. You give consent to the game, and not to other players. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > The fact that you use terms like “anemic”, “terminally-enfeebled” etc suggest you consider it a moral failing of CCP to make it harder to grief players. We will not agree on this. It’s right in the word: “Griefing”, causes grief for people, and I will never be on board with that. The gameplay being engaged in is not grief-play. It happens within the confines of the game’s rules. Labeling it as grief is something you choose to do, subjectively. You can of course believe anything you wish, but that doesn’t mean it becomes binding to everyone else. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > Eve is NOT marketed as a hide-and-seek game. Or a predator/prey game. It is marketed as “Experience space exploration, immense PvP and PvE battles, multiple professions and activities, as well as a thriving player economy. The ever-expanding sandbox of EVE allows you to choose your own unique space adventure from countless options.” I absolutely agree. We’ve discussed this on the forums many times. For example: > [@Why I dislike gankers and people opposed to ganking](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/why-i-dislike-gankers-and-people-opposed-to-ganking/440998/175): > > This is objectively false. In fact, CCP hasn’t explicitly mentioned the game’s PvP component (outside of vague references to things like “alliance wars”) in any EVE trailers since the “play for free” trailer about seven years ago. By that time, they were already hardly mentioning EVE’s PvP heritage compared to how they were flaunting it during the first ten years. The last great PvP-centric trailer was the one for Retribution, in my opinion. None of the four current trailers on Steam mention a… CCP has drastically changed the way they market the game over the past decade. However, they didn’t change the underlying core game mechanics to be in line with that advertising. That is very dishonest and deceptive on their part. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > Yeah, that’s definitely an idea. sacrifice alot of amenities to move away from “the city” though, not to mention the indignation I have at being displaced and that being ‘cool’ with everyone except the displaced population. I think i’d take a totally different moral stance if our miners had actually committed some injustice and gankers were seeking frontier retribution. They didn’t. They just feel entitled to profit from mining being conducted in any hisec system. If you’re apt to make so many real-life parallels in your arguments, perhaps you should hire a security guard for your mining operations? Real-life businesses do this despite having the legal and moral entitlement to not be robbed during regular operation, because crime is something that just happens, no matter how much you talk about that it _shouldn’t._ This game simulates the possibility of crime being able to happen, and you’ll have to deal with that if you want to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/688 "2024-03-09T18:57:50Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > you’ll have to deal with that if you want to enjoy it. He doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/689 "2024-03-09T19:21:43Z")
I can see your problem now. You probably have been told lies and not been educated by veterans who really care for new players. Thus you believe that “something” is wrong and “should be fixed”. You should really consider to join a corp/alliance with a real education program for new players and some actual concept of defense and support. The problem you are facing is only looking bad for you because you lack knowledge and experience, but in reality it isn’t really that scary. Everyone can learn ‘not to be prey’, the question is: will he do it or will he chose the easier route to just complain about how unfair the world is. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/690 "2024-03-09T19:27:51Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Everyone can learn ‘not to be prey’ Darwin would disagree ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/691 "2024-03-09T19:31:31Z")
Darwin has quit the game already, his opinion is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wes_wyhunnan/32/409400_2.png) [@Wes\_Wyhunnan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wes_Wyhunnan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/692 "2024-03-09T19:37:27Z")
> [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > Why are you so hostile Because you are just the next in a long line of never ending players who wander into the forum with an idea of what the game ‘should’ be rather than what the game is. Then you attach absolutely absurd real life moralities into a game where they do not apply in an attempt to portray yourself as the good guy. Then you lobby for drastic, game shattering changes that would completely destroy the game the rest of us have been playing for years to suit what you think it should be, rather than engaging with the game itself to obtain what you want. You’ll throw out 50 different posts then in two weeks never post again. And right after that another first-time poster will show up and the whole thing starts again. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/693 "2024-03-09T19:55:03Z")
They share one thing in common - they never listen ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/e/e/6/ee630ed9bcc170948b3c50ea656e3db6cede673a.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/694 "2024-03-09T19:57:31Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > This is a role-playing video game, and not real life. The requisite amount of respect that players give to each other is playing within the outlined rules of the game. Anything else is the imposition of personal moral standards that don’t belong here. Yes, I’m imposing my own moral standards, but they aren’t dogmatic, arbitrary standards - they are standards held not only by people in the real world, but among players of virtually every other MMO. That moral standard is simply that harassment should be discouraged in online gaming, because by definition, harassment favors one party over another, which in addition to sucking for the one being harassed, unlevels the playing field, making it just a bad game design. CCP has moral standards as seen on their ToS: “You may not use “role-playing” as an excuse to violate these rules. While EVE Online is a persistent world, fantasy role-playing game, the claim of role-playing is not an acceptable defense for anti-social behavior. Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy.” ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/695 "2024-03-09T19:58:59Z")
> [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > My qualms have to do with player behavior and CCP’s choice to not make changes that would encourage more prosocial behavior They’ve spent the past 2 decades doing exactly that: making piracy harder and harder and harder and harder. You’re in the most warm, cuddly version of Eve Online right now, and you still aren’t satisfied. > [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > there is nothing in there that suggests I don’t know how the game works The fact that you see _exactly_ how the game works, and how the players act, and declare “this is wrong”, is 100% suggestive that you don’t know how the game works – mechanics _and_ player behavior meta. ---
**Author:** ![Zaera\_Keena](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zaera_keena/32/449938_2.png) [@Zaera\_Keena](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zaera_Keena)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/696 "2024-03-09T20:08:19Z")
> [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](#): > > fantasy role-playing game I thought so, this is not the game for you. A game , more to your liking would be : ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/3/f/e/3fe74d4a1feec773848cb55fb564791e958fc37f.jpeg) Final Fantasy 14 ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/697 "2024-03-09T20:10:48Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > The games you’re describing have an entirely different framework compared to EVE. Yes, they do. I was thinking of an example of consensual predator/prey gaming, which I thought you were arguing cannot exist, so i was showing that it already exists. Poker is a great example and I’m glad you brought it up because I didn’t think of that. Poker rules allow deception, bluffing, and personal gain at the expense of others. I would not complain about a lack of respect if i lost at Poker unless I found out that my opponents violated rules. I would not request for the design of the game to be reconsidered but i might ask that the tournament be regulated better to prevent rule violation. The difference in eve is that players are encouraged to choose their own path with very different skill sets to the point that its no longer “my hand” against “your hand”, it’s your hand against my left eyebrow. There are no rules in a game of poker stating “a player may not repeatedly fart in the face of his opponent” but there is a general agreement that such behavior is disruptive and harassment, even if the farter isn’t peaking at his opponents hand. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/698 "2024-03-09T20:12:38Z")
You sound like the kind of guy that would log into a Minecraft Anarchy server and begin complaining about the lack of rules and the „disappointing“ player behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/699 "2024-03-09T20:21:47Z")
Okay lets think about this. There is a long line of never ending players saying that something should change, and your response is…it’s all in their head? Not that maybe there is a problem? And then people leave the game because of the hostility towards those of us who want it to change and what, that is proof that we were wrong and you were right? Not that you harassed players out of participating? Your fear that it would completely destroy the game suggests that I’ve made a specific suggestion for a fix and I haven’t. You disagree with the fundamental statement that harassment shouldn;t be permitted in EVE and that’s it. You think it should be permitted, I don’t. I started playing eve because I love space sims, character development, multiple career options, exploration, conquering, etc - all the things EVE advertises for players to join because of. People with your predatory attitude hijacked the game and has held it hostage since the beginning. People like me actually hold a mirror up to you so you see how your attitude affects players and you hate the idea that your fun could legitimately harm another person. You’ll attack anyone who suggests your playstyle is anything other than harmless. ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/700 "2024-03-09T20:26:05Z")
Do I? Are you not complaining about MY disappointing player behavior right now? You seem like the kind of person who goes on a forum and completely belittles the concerns of numerous players. Unlike your presumptive and insulting comment, mine is actually based in observation. ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/701 "2024-03-09T20:37:11Z")
Final Fantasy 14 is a great game. Good suggestion. Maybe you’d like it if you played it - actually see what its like when people respect eachother. You love trolling, don’t you? It’s just more harassment and demonstrates an underlying disdain for those who value mutual respect of fellow gamers - I didn’t come on this forum to insult you, I came to add my voice and advocacy to those who think there is a problem with harassment. The fact that you are harassing me right now is further proof and weakens the argument that “eve is just a game where the rules allow griefing so I do it there but not in the real world” . You do it in the real world when you can, and you do it in eve. ---
**Author:** ![Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shadmor_fatbutt/32/413636_2.png) [@Shadmor\_Fatbutt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shadmor_Fatbutt)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970/702 "2024-03-09T20:43:22Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > They’ve spent the past 2 decades doing exactly that: making piracy harder and harder and harder and harder. You’re in the most warm, cuddly version of Eve Online right now, and you still aren’t satisfied. I wasn’t there decades ago. I don’t know what has changed, but it doesn’t matter to me - i’m only talking about the current experiences of players, and if the current experiences are bad, then they are bad. I’m satisfied with a lot in EVE, just not harassment. Can you live without harassing others? > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The fact that you see _exactly_ how the game works, and how the players act, and declare “this is wrong”, is 100% suggestive that you don’t know how the game works – mechanics _and_ player behavior meta. I don’t understand this statement honestly. Nor do i see how not fully understanding player behavior means I can’t identify harassment when its taking place, even if such harassment is allowed by CCP. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970.md?page=33) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-totally-failed-its-hsec-players/437970.md?page=35)