# Change in citadel benefits **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [February 23, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634 "2020-02-23T21:54:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/29 "2020-02-24T01:25:32Z")
Lol so many posts flagged, torgo must be having a bad day 🙂. ---
**Author:** ![Daoden](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daoden/32/271841_2.png) [@Daoden](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daoden)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/30 "2020-02-24T02:09:46Z")
You keep sayin PvP players should go to null, yet you want capitals in high? Im gonna use your words on this one, go to null. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro\_Yurgin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pedro_yurgin/32/361653_2.png) [@Pedro\_Yurgin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pedro_Yurgin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 2:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/31 "2020-02-24T02:18:10Z")
> [@Torgo\_Tahn](#): > > Take HS moon mining for instance, make it that if you are not part of the corp/alliance mining on that moon would make you go suspect. You don’t own the moon ore in HS. You actually don’t own anything in HS. Its the faction that owns it all and everyone in the area is free to mine from the belts as if they are an regular belt. I know you spent the money and can only have 1 structure in the spot, but its the faction’s space they allow you to place it there for free. In HS you can’t actually own space or a moon or a system. Thats the price you pay for Concord. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/32 "2020-02-24T02:41:37Z")
> [@Pedro\_Yurgin](#): > > You don’t own the moon ore in HS. You actually don’t own anything in HS. Its the faction that owns it all and everyone in the area is free to mine from the belts as if they are an regular belt. > I know you spent the money and can only have 1 structure in the spot, but its the faction’s space they allow you to place it there for free. > In HS you can’t actually own space or a moon or a system. Thats the price you pay for Concord. Yup, in the end they are all serfs 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/33 "2020-02-24T03:59:40Z")
> [@Daoden](#): > > You keep sayin PvP players should go to null, yet you want capitals in high? Im gonna use your words on this one, go to null. No, PvP trash who wants to force their gameplay unto others should go to null… ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/34 "2020-02-24T04:00:13Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > Yup, in the end they are all serfs 🤣 😛 No, but that was kinda funny… ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 4:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/35 "2020-02-24T04:00:32Z")
> [@Pedro\_Yurgin](#): > > You don’t own the moon ore in HS. You actually don’t own anything in HS. Its the faction that owns it all and everyone in the area is free to mine from the belts as if they are an regular belt. > I know you spent the money and can only have 1 structure in the spot, but its the faction’s space they allow you to place it there for free. > In HS you can’t actually own space or a moon or a system. Thats the price you pay for Concord… In before CCP owns everything and they are master 0\_0 ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/36 "2020-02-24T15:13:20Z")
Two comments to the OP: 1. Hard no to moon asteroids being “owned” by anyone. Resource harvesting of all types (ore mining, ice mining, salvaging, gas harvesting, etc.) is considered to be a non-aggressive act. There’s no other situation where stuff floating in space is “owned” by someone from a harvesting standpoint. Aside from requiring new and potentially confusing mechanics, it seems odd to make it one way for a limited subset of resource and another way for everything else. 2. The whole “one player shell corporation” defense for hisec structures has its drawbacks as well. While the actual owners of the structure and the members of their corporation may be safe from wardecs, they are also _extremely_ limited in their ability to defend said structure without hiring outside assistance. They’re trading safety for their line members in exchange for increased risk to (or cost to defend) their structures. I see that as a fair tradeoff. -1 overall. Is the use of one player shell corporations annoying to some players? Yeah. _But that’s precisely the point._ There are ways around it if you’re willing. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/39 "2020-02-24T20:17:56Z")
> [@Sabus\_Narian](#): > > > The whole “one player shell corporation” defense for hisec structures has its drawbacks as well. While the actual owners of the structure and the members of their corporation may be safe from wardecs, they are also _extremely_ limited in their ability to defend said structure without hiring outside assistance. They’re trading safety for their line members in exchange for increased risk to (or cost to defend) their structures. I see that as a fair tradeoff. > > Yup, they can’t defend their structures. So are you saying that you can’t defend your Fortizar operated by [Incompetent Holdings](https://evewho.com/corporation/98616776) (a two character shell corp) in [Audaerne](https://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Sinq_Laison/Audaerne#sec)? Because that would be a _ **real** _ shame… [evestruct](https://www.kalkoken.org/apps/evestruct/?page=structures) is _ **such** _ a wonderful tool… 😈 ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/42 "2020-02-24T20:51:12Z")
> [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > So are you saying that you can’t defend your Fortizar operated by [Incompetent Holdings](https://evewho.com/corporation/98616776) (a two character shell corp) in [Audaerne](https://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Sinq_Laison/Audaerne#sec)? Because that would be a _ **real** _ shame… > > [evestruct](https://www.kalkoken.org/apps/evestruct/?page=structures) is _ **such** _ a wonderful tool… > > 😈 Nope, like the wolf with 3 pigs story a slight huff will bring it down ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/43 "2020-02-24T21:23:35Z")
Just dec the structure. And i hear suicide ganking is easy, risk free and guaranteed profit! So do that to protect your own moons. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/44 "2020-02-24T22:20:53Z")
> [@Bronson\_Hughes](#): > > [evestruct](https://www.kalkoken.org/apps/evestruct/?page=structures) is _ **such** _ a wonderful tool… Thank you for this. I had no idea such a catalog existed. ---
**Author:** ![Torgo\_Tahn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/torgo_tahn/32/447555_2.png) [@Torgo\_Tahn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Torgo_Tahn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 5:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/47 "2020-02-26T05:12:21Z")
I understand your point. I would like to not focus so much on the moon mining as the only goal here. My overall point was that structures provide too much benefit to everyone around them regardless if their alliance owns it or not. The moon ore was used as an example. But getting back to your first point, I am inclined to disagree with you. POCO’s, whoever owns the POCO gets the ability to tax the materials harvested to the planet. In this instance the organization that owns the POCO has some claim to the materials contained within. But for your examples, all but 1 are just laying around and require no player interaction to be generated. The one exception being wrecks. Player buys ship, shoots NPC and now the wreck is produced. That player is entitled to the loot held within but anyone else has the opportunity to take that loot for their own at risk of being shot. Moon mining requires player interaction that someone has to buy/anchor the structure, and pay to fuel it. This was my thinking with the example I gave for moon mining. I am again inclined to disagree with your second point but not entirely. With structure defense mechanics as they are it is not you only have the to fight the structure, but everyone they call in as allies to come protect the structure. Citadels properly fit can be a royal pain to take down, and to top it off, there is always the classic time zone tank. On the surface yes it does appear to be at a pretty big disadvantage but given the factors I’ve listed above I believe negates that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Ugren\_Okaski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ugren_okaski/32/181459_2.png) [@Ugren\_Okaski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ugren_Okaski)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/48 "2020-02-26T06:08:55Z")
> [@Sabus\_Narian](#): > > Nerf to highsec players No, it is a nerf to a playstyle of stealing moon ore from others. I am ashamed about your corporation morals if that is what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Bronson\_Hughes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bronson_hughes/32/189075_2.png) [@Bronson\_Hughes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bronson_Hughes)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/49 "2020-02-26T12:23:34Z")
> [@Torgo\_Tahn](#): > > POCO’s, whoever owns the POCO gets the ability to tax the materials harvested to the planet. In this instance the organization that owns the POCO has some claim to the materials contained within. That’s not entirely accurate. They owners of the POCO don’t tax everything harvested or produced on the planet, they tax everything removed from the planet via the POCO. They charge other players a fee for using their infrastructure, just like with Upwell structures. Incidentally, POCO owners can set their tax rates to 0% for certain groups, just like the owners of Upwell structures owned by a shell corporation can not charge taxes for the “actual” owners. So in that regard, Upwell structures already work just like POCOs. > [@Torgo\_Tahn](#): > > I am again inclined to disagree with your second point but not entirely. With structure defense mechanics as they are it is not you only have the to fight the structure, but everyone they call in as allies to come protect the structure. Citadels properly fit can be a royal pain to take down, and to top it off, there is always the classic time zone tank. The benefits you mentioned (calling in allies, strong defensive fits, time zone tanking) apply whether the Upwell structure in question is held by a shell corporation or not. But the downside of not having a large pool of pilots to pull from to assist in the defense of the structure only applies to Upwell structures held by a shell corporation. (Well, technically, it would also apply to a poorly managed corporation with few or no pilots with the Starbase Manager role, but that’s not relevant.) So you’re not making a particularly strong argument here. Also, aside from these two examples you are overlooking a different use case: What about freeports owned by small corporations? In terms of game mechanics, how could you accurately and reliably distinguish between one of these and an Upwell structure being held by a shell corporation for the sake of wardec protection? Freeport owners have to keep their taxes low already in order to attract business, and if a move like this made them less appealing to players outside of their corporation, they’d almost certainly lose business. ---
**Author:** ![Torgo\_Tahn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/torgo_tahn/32/447555_2.png) [@Torgo\_Tahn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Torgo_Tahn)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/50 "2020-02-26T21:48:33Z")
I don’t want a nerf into the ground for citadels, just small tweaks. It would still have benefits to utilizing the services like building. Production I would put better than NPC but not as great as owning the station itself. Those who own the structure get the bonus as it stands currently. There would still be the taxes gained from it for the owners. The market hubs, I would expect to remain as they are. With the citadel defense that you brought up, it wasn’t a total disagree with your point. I was simply trying to point out that it’s downside is vastly overshadowed by the benefits. A citadel hidden in a shell corporation and a small group actually owning the structure would in my opinion change very little for the small corporation running the citadel. The distinguishing factor would be, does your corp or a corp within your alliance own this structure. If not, then you get the middle of the road benefits compared to the full benefits the owners receive for their investment in the structure. Unless the system is heavily active with production (like ones in Perimeter) they are not in it for the profit from the citadel itself. I owned a Sotiyo in Delve, minimum 300b was being built a month from minerals to hulls and the income that it generated was laughable compared to what it cost to fuel. This change would be more to those that utilize structures they don’t own. Each group would have to either accept the change and continue with the not as good but better benefits than NPC or they would have to anchor/operate their own to continue to receive the benefits fully. It would make it that corporations/alliances would have to take an actual look if the benefits outweigh the costs. ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2020, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/51 "2020-02-26T23:41:45Z")
> [@Torgo\_Tahn](#): > > I don’t want a nerf into the ground for citadels, just small tweaks. What if current owners want to be able to mine the athanors that they own on alts? Like they do currently. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/52 "2020-02-27T02:34:53Z")
> [@Sabus\_Narian](#): > > What if current owners want to be able to mine the athanors that they own on alts? Then you can put everyone into the same corp and have no problems. ---
**Author:** ![Sabus\_Narian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sabus_narian/32/147677_2.png) [@Sabus\_Narian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sabus_Narian)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/53 "2020-02-27T22:20:46Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Then you can put everyone into the same corp and have no problems. What if I want to mine the athanor with alts in a corp separate from the one that owns the athanor? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634/54 "2020-02-27T22:21:54Z")
> [@Sabus\_Narian](#): > > What if I want to mine the athanor with alts in a corp separate from the one that owns the athanor? Then you don’t get to do what you want. Put your alts in the same corp as your main, problem solved. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-in-citadel-benefits/221634.md?page=3)