# Change to war dec mechanics **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [April 2, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463 "2018-04-02T19:39:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/62 "2018-04-04T16:57:35Z")
The lack of whom? CCP? ---
**Author:** ![Keno\_Skir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keno_skir/32/460582_2.png) [@Keno\_Skir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keno_Skir)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/63 "2018-04-04T17:48:35Z")
> [@Alopex-Lagopus](#): > > Confirmed. Merin Ryskin is Teckos Pech. You have no idea what you’re talking about 🤣 > [@Alopex-Lagopus](#): > > I wonder what percentage of new players get war decked and just don’t undock and get board and move on to another game? Only the non-hackers we don’t really want. That would be like buying Call of Duty and not leaving the initial spawn point because you’ve heard there are brown people out there who want you dead. We can do without the people who want EvE to be something it’s not, in favour of the people who support what EvE already is. A harsh sandbox where you must fight for everything you have. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/64 "2018-04-04T18:40:35Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > The lack of whom? CCP? Everybody. Those who want it to remain the same shout it down rather than discuss it. People get tired of being shouted at rather than hold discussion and leave. CCP ignores the issue because nobody talks about it without yelling. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/65 "2018-04-04T20:41:24Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Those who want it to remain the same shout it down rather than discuss it. How many people posting in these threads want it to remain the same though? Pretty much everyone, from what most of these threads show, would like changes to wardecs, not for them to remain the same. The differences don’t seem to be whether change is needed, but what the change should be and I can’t see one side shouting anymore than another. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/66 "2018-04-04T21:11:53Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > The differences don’t seem to be whether change is needed, but what the change should be and I can’t see one side shouting anymore than another. The problem? > [@Do\_Little](#): > > Ah - the weekly wardec thread. This time I don’t see any complaint about new player griefing - which I consider the only valid reason to change wars. As it is people already say we don’t need change. Do Little also listed the current methods of avoiding war. Not good ideas, nor bad ideas, but merely status quo ideas. Change can make wars better, or worse, or not important at all. People still spout status quo as a defense rather than discuss things. So we’re left with status quo. We’re left with war being not important at all. With everything that is making war so easily unimportant what’s the point in making any change of any format to make war actually a situation where people engage in combat? A reason for the defenders to fight back? A point for attackers to gain? They don’t exist. You have no reason to fight as a defender because you can never end a war that way without the attacker’s consent. Attackers don’t have to do anything at all to go to war. There is no risk. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/67 "2018-04-04T21:17:42Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > As it is people already say we don’t need change. Which people, and where are they shouting down change? Even in the quote you’ve used, Do Little lists a reason for change. That doesn’t seem like saying change isn’t needed. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/68 "2018-04-04T21:18:47Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Even in the quote you’ve used, Do Little lists a reason for change. That doesn’t seem like saying change isn’t needed. He’s also rejecting every other possible format for it being changed. Read it twice. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/69 "2018-04-04T21:21:12Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > He’s also rejecting every other possible format for it being changed. Read it twice. We all have views, but sure, let’s put Do Little in the “wants it to stay the same and shouts it down group”. Who else? Not saying you are wrong, it just isn;t my experience in these threads (in what I read there is broad agreement that change is needed), and it’s too easy to invent facts that support an argument (it happens all the time, without actually being supportable). ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/70 "2018-04-04T21:28:58Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Who else? I could go on for days listing things really. But here’s one from this thread also. > [@QuakeGod](#): > > We need a forum filter to where anything to do with bumping, war decs, cloaking, and Alphas flying barges in the title or body are automatically ignored… Which is weird to be saying “lets ignore” while responding in a player features and ideas section. > [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > This thread will achieve just as much as all the others anyway. : - ) > [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > No, -1. > > If you want to fight over territory go to NS or WH, or join factions. > > Duplicate feature. > > /thread > > /topic I could scroll up more. I do not feel need to. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/71 "2018-04-04T21:34:30Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > I could go on for days listing things really. But here’s one from this thread also. None of those give any idea that those 3 people don’t see a need for change; and if that is what shouting is, then we clearly have very different views on what constitutes shouting. In these 3 cases: QuakeGod: is tired of reading these types of threads, but no indication that change isn’t needed (and I agree with your reply, that if someone is tired of the endless topic coming up over and over and over, then just don’t read them). What’s the shouting down bit? Solecist: Makes a comment about how much this thread (especially as it’s a daily topic) will achieve. No indication that change isn’t needed (actually I’m pretty sure Solecist agress with the need for change, based on discussion in the discord) and where’s the shouting? Is that really shouting down others? Salt: Clearly doesn’t like this specific change (structure based war idea), which he sees as too much like sov mechanics, so gives it a -1. No indication either way whether he thinks wars should remain the same and shouting? Is that a shouting post? I’m just not seeing what you are claiming. How is any of this shouting down others? ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/72 "2018-04-04T21:39:34Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > and if that is what shouting is, then we clearly have very different views on what constitutes shouting. Ah. So you want the exact definition. Very well. > **[Proof by assertion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion)** > > Proof by assertion, sometimes informally referred to as proof by repeated assertion, is an informal fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction and refutation. The proposition can sometimes be repeated until any challenges or opposition cease, letting the proponent assert it as fact, and solely due to a lack of challengers (argumentum ad nauseam). In other cases, its repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth, in a variant of the appeal to authori This ... Browse a few of the threads on war itself. We’ll see a bunch of the same people saying no every single time to any suggestion for all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/73 "2018-04-04T21:44:08Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Browse a few of the threads on war itself. I’ve browsed every one of them (taken part in most). Ultimately, it’s not my claim. I’m just questioning it and clearly you don’t actually have the evidence to support your claim, otherwise it would be easy to post it, rather than the common “go find the evidence yourself” argument. No loss. You aren’t doing anything many others don’t also do - write something that seems to support your own argument, without actually validating it. Happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/74 "2018-04-04T21:46:00Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > I’ve browsed every one of them (taken part in most). Ultimately, it’s not my claim. I’m just questioning it and clearly you don’t actually have the evidence to support your claim, otherwise it would be easy to post it, rather than the common “go find the evidence yourself” argument. You received multiple statements in this thread and then decided they were not what they said. > **[Moving the goalposts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts)** > > Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor, derived from goal-based sports, that means to change the rule or criterion (goal) of a process or competition while it is still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an advantage or disadvantage. > Deliberately moving the goalposts constitutes a professional foul in rugby football and an unfair act in gridiron football. The officials are granted carte blanche to assess whatever penalty they see fit, including aw... What possible reason would I have in providing more when you’ll just change what you want to be rather than what is? ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/75 "2018-04-04T21:49:39Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > You received multiple statements in this thread and then decided they were not what they said. Actually, they are clearly what they said. It would be crazy to argue otherwise, and I’m not doing that. They aren’t what you said. There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/76 "2018-04-04T22:15:51Z")
1. There is no room for proper discussion. 2. There are no enforced standards. We only have rules. You require at least these to have proper discussions. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/77 "2018-04-04T23:00:36Z")
Then how about we discard any and all statements about what needs to change and collect up the views of people on the thread about what is good, bad, and ugly about the way war currently acts. Or we can ignore everything again. > [@The good, the bad, and the ugly. What do we need to make War actual War?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844): > > I will not use this post for anything other than to start the thread and collect opinions on things. Good: Destroying things - @MinerArt PvP - @mkint Bad: Easily Avoided - @MinerArt Everything - @Solstice_Projekt @Ameko_Tanaka No step from PvE to PvP - @mkint Watchlist removal - @mkint Ugly: Purpose for fighting - @MinerArt Corp finding tools have zero help in this - @mkint Not treated as a core piece of eve - @mkint Decline participation - @Ralph_King-Griffin Pay Concord for p… Put your opinion in, or don’t. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/78 "2018-04-04T23:55:49Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Put your opinion in, or don’t. Your choice. My opinion is already in, across several threads going back the last 2-3 years. I’m not a chef, yet I know what food I like and don’t like. I’m not a game designer, yet I know what game design suggestions I like and don’t like. As a “not a game designer” I definitely don’t think my ideas are ever any good themselves, and me adding in crap ideas to the growing list of crap ideas, won’t add anything of value. All I would be doing (as evidenced in the suggestions I have made in other threads) is polishing a turd, not actually throwing it away and replacing it with something that actually works. So personally, while it isn’t required to be a game designer to critique suggestions that are made, I personally see it as better effort on my part to just continue to highlight that wars do need changing, and hopefully the real game designers, based on the weight of the community continually communicating a need, will actually design something good. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/79 "2018-04-05T00:51:43Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > I personally see it as better effort on my part to just continue to highlight that wars do need changing Then tell us what you think is good. Tell us what you think is bad. Tell us what you think is ugly. Or keep using if by wiskey. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/80 "2018-04-05T00:54:18Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Then tell us what you think is good. > > Tell us what you think is bad. > > Tell us what you think is ugly. My thoughts on all these things are already over a tonne of threads. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463/81 "2018-04-05T01:08:07Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > My thoughts on all these things are already over a tonne of threads. Where? When? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/change-to-war-dec-mechanics/67463.md?page=5)