# Changes in the energy consumption of Ammar laser ships are needed **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [February 13, 2024, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514 "2024-02-13T13:27:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/102 "2024-02-23T15:44:08Z")
I zoned out of this thread a long time ago. You guys have way more patience and a higher tolerance for stupidity than I have, congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Yuzima](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yuzima/32/416395_2.png) [@Yuzima](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yuzima)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/103 "2024-02-23T16:33:48Z")
I biomassed my first character after a couple of weeks. I started comparing CPU and power grids of the other races and knew I had ■■■■■■ up. The Amar ships are weak on cpu, power grid, armor… and their weapons will eat all the juice left out of what’s left of the ship. That’s a bad deal all around. I find the Gallente ships much more balanced in relation to their weapons. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2024, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/104 "2024-02-23T23:26:25Z")
Amarr has the best PG on average, and usually the best PG remaining after accounting for weapons. Amarr has the highest base armor. Amarr has the highest base cap regen. ---
**Author:** ![Yuzima](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yuzima/32/416395_2.png) [@Yuzima](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yuzima)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/106 "2024-02-24T00:44:52Z")
@Cyberius_Mnemon I understand you’re tired of explaining the obvious but maybe ad hominem may not be exactly the way to go. Members can read. Their reading comprehension isn’t your problem. I suggest you let it rest. If CCP is aware of it they may do something. Otherwise… Welcome to the Gallente Federation 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Yuzima](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yuzima/32/416395_2.png) [@Yuzima](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yuzima)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/107 "2024-02-24T00:49:33Z")
> [@James\_Baboli](#): > > Amarr has the best PG on average, and usually the best PG remaining after accounting for weapons. > Amarr has the highest base armor. > Amarr has the highest base cap regen Yes, I’m sure it’s fascinating but I’ve chosen Gallente ships and hybrid ammo and I have strong reasons for it. But good luck to the Amarrians. The lack of energy in their ships is no longer a concern of mine. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/108 "2024-02-24T01:10:18Z")
> [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](#): > > As soon as you look at the screenshots, tell us where the ships have Ammar “usually the best PG remaining after accounting for weapons”? Close range weapons test, armor tank hulls Abaddon with mega pulses, 6450MW left. Mega with Neutron blasters, 6277.3MW left. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/9/f/2/9f2a38de77886962a192290acc1130d6514dc081.png) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/b/4/d/b4dccf25693b4f168476ff3c9d20d8bc23a128d9.png) Long range weapons test, armor tank hulls. Abaddon with mega beams, 3087.6 Dominix with 425 rails, 26MW left. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/8/e/b/8eb0feefef8c4f561a41b2b25f5d6708e09329bd.png) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/4/7/b/47bb2c118407810f9fb3f084f996c5a6dc710eec.png) Tachyon beams are a unique issue, as no non-faction ship is intended to use tachs without a concession to fitting them in some way. They’re basically a bonus to sniperfit paladins and nightmares. > [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](#): > > By the way, don’t forget to write where in my topic or message it was that the Ammar ships were bad or similar? Are you a jerk, in principle, can you understand what is said in the forum topic and the first message? It was a response to the person I noted it as a response to, though unlike with you, I didn’t think I needed to go into specific quotes on each individual point. > [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](#): > > Does the unreasonably increased energy consumption of lasers on Ammar ships correspond to the bonuses that laser turrets allegedly have in comparison with OTHER weapons? If it matches, explain why. Close range i.e. pulse lasers have by far the best damage projection of any close range turret. This is matched by their bad tracking. The lack of ammunition, overall 2nd place DPS in close range weapons and ability to tailor damage vs range and capacitor use “immediately” (1-2s depending on input speed) match the capacitor use. The cap use is the primary drawback for best or 2nd best in every other category but tracking. Also, scorch makes them able to compete with true long range turret fits with close range turret tracking as midrange weapons, making it nearly impossible to kite pulse fits without needing to move to range bonused hulls with rails or artillery. Long range i.e. beam lasers have the best damage output of any of the long range turrets, and handily beat out artillery and rails on tracking, have similar optimum ranges, the advantage of damage ramping to match range as decribed above. They also are relatively lighter vs. the maximum PG for most fits, making a double plat baddon with megabeams feasible. Gleam is a really good close range t2 ammo for what long range turrets typically finding themselves lacking in pvp. Again, cap is the downside for generally excellent performance in every other criteria. > [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](#): > > Does the unreasonably increased energy consumption of lasers on Ammar ships correspond to those reduced characteristics in comparison with other weapons? Which characteristics, in comparison with other weapons, have a lower value, you will find out when you start comparing them. Justify the answer. Lasers are if not first, second pretty much everywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/109 "2024-02-24T02:14:45Z")
I like Amarr ships and lasers. No, they’re not the perfect setup for every situation nor where they might to be. The fun of flying them is in the cap management. When you can pull it off, your opponent goes wtf, how did he do that? Learn to use all Races and their ships to their own strengths and not their weaknesses. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cyberius_mnemon/32/386987_2.png) [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cyberius_Mnemon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/111 "2024-02-24T02:37:47Z")
So I have already transferred to the ships of other factions. It’s just a pity to see the condition of the laser turrets on the Ammar ships. After all, I started playing with Ammar and I want the situation with the energy consumption of laser turrets on their ships to improve. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/112 "2024-02-24T02:39:41Z")
You need to provide more if you are wanting to disprove his assertions. What are you trying to say with a screen shot of two weapons side by side. Yes Lasers take more PG, but Amarrian ships have more powergrid to balance that out, James’ screenshot shows that. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cyberius_mnemon/32/386987_2.png) [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cyberius_Mnemon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/113 "2024-02-24T02:43:36Z")
> [@Changes in the energy consumption of Ammar laser ships are needed](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/31): > > Here’s your fit. How much can you do in a minute and a half with a crutch in the form of batteries? I think not. But, clean Amarr ships only with turrets and damage mode: Abbadons on Tachyons are not even enough for the basic power grid. And let me remind you, there are no other modules here! For comparison, other ships: Is everything okay, is nothing confusing? Therefore, if you continue to say tha… Do you still need additional provide? ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/114 "2024-02-24T02:44:58Z")
Okay… Optimal range and falloff a bit better than 2x the neutron blaster. Identical cycle time. Lower CPU use. Higher PG use, but more than compensated by the base hull stats. Tracking a little lower, because of the ideal range being longer. Slightly lower base damage mod, higher on the abaddon because of the 50% damage bonus. DPS above autocannons, and projection better than that as well. And higher cap use, because of that all. It’s not always easy, but almost any amarr hull can be made to work well with any of the laser turrets except tachyons if well fit. The ANI I improved off Zkill tends to suggest your perception of the issue being significantly worse than many peoples is from your fits not efficiently using the resources available. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/115 "2024-02-24T02:47:15Z")
Address the arguments given, don’t change to another part of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cyberius_mnemon/32/386987_2.png) [@Cyberius\_Mnemon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cyberius_Mnemon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/116 "2024-02-24T02:51:46Z")
Read the messages in this topic, because you will write nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/117 "2024-02-24T02:54:39Z")
You are the one writing nonsense and not properly engaging with others on this topic. If your proposal can’t withstand scrutiny, there is no way CCP will entertain this. Having debates is healthy, but you need to be factual and not tie yourself down to whether or not you are “right”. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 2:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/118 "2024-02-24T02:57:41Z")
We have. The problem as you perceive it isn’t there as far as I can tell, other than the issue of fitting tachyons to t1 hulls other than oracles, which sidestep that with the ABC bonuses. Are there individual energy turrets that could use a slight improvement on cap efficiency? Yes. Are they the ones that are top DPS and range inside pulse or beam for any tier? Probably not. Tachs might, but they’re their own particular issue. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 3:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/119 "2024-02-24T03:26:15Z")
So, as it stands, even with all skills 5, only one of the base amarr battleships is actually able to fit a “full” rack of t2 tachyons, the Armageddon with a measly 5 unbonused turrets. But if you do fit the one mod necessary to get them and a PG frugal fit on a ship, they don’t really have the increased performance to justify the PG problems baked in from the word go. I thusly propose they be moved to 3640 for t2 tachyons (and proportional changes for the other meta levels), which leaves 42 MW of PG on the apoc and abaddon without any fitting modules, effectively still requiring a PG module, but opening up a little bit more use of the interesting potential fits. I think this leaves them a niche option, but wouldn’t be over powered because - 1.5x Damage modifier of mega beams is mostly cancelled out by the almost 40% longer cycle time, leading to an unbonused per turret gleam DPS of 53.1 for tachyons and 49.2 for mega beams, with neither having notably significant alpha for a battleship turret unless heavily bonused. - 10% better base range vs current megabeam doctrines is significant but not overwhelming, leaving rail boats as the premier snipers still. - The majority of fits still specifically need a PG module or implant to fit any kind of tank except standoff distance. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 3:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/120 "2024-02-24T03:31:16Z")
> [@James\_Baboli](#): > > fit a “full” rack of t2 tachyons Pick a lighter weapon then? I never had a problem finding balance. Maybe you ask too much and want it all instead? I fit ships for specific jobs. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 3:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/121 "2024-02-24T03:50:16Z")
I tend to pick a ship better suited… Tachs and paladins or nightmares are a great fit for each other. However I suggested that level specifically to eliminate the weirdness of them not fitting on the t1 hulls in a way which doesn’t appreciably power creep those hulls but does add some theoretically interesting sniper fits to the table. And because it removes one of the few mostly legitimate arguments for things like this without said powercreep. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 3:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/122 "2024-02-24T03:53:17Z")
I still say it’s the experience not to panic and manage cap successfully. Meh, must be just me… ---
**Author:** ![James\_Baboli](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_baboli/32/408702_2.png) [@James\_Baboli](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Baboli)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 4:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/123 "2024-02-24T04:05:30Z")
Agreed. But part of it is also in the experience to build the fit effectively to have the cap needed to then manage it as intended in the usecase envisioned (which also requires knowing what that usecase actually wants for proper performance) . And my current thinking is that the OP is running fits that don’t have the cap to work out well in a given usecase, leading to a perception of a much worse problem than most. [I make this assessment based on the recent ANI death in PVE.](https://zkillboard.com/kill/115249031/) as the [fit I posted here](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514/95) has the same offense or better, with 6 EHP/s less than the same tank and better cap stability except under extreme neut pressure, and 3 rig slots to fill in as needed. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/changes-in-the-energy-consumption-of-ammar-laser-ships-are-needed/439514.md?page=7)