# Chaos Era Continues - Cyno Update **URL:** \ **Category:** Upcoming Features & Changes\ **Tags:** null-sec, low-sec, pvp\ **Created:** [August 14, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197 "2019-08-14T16:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 124
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2540 "2019-09-04T09:56:43Z")
Can the Rorqual use the Industrial Cyno? And when is CCP Rise getting kicked from CCP for this stupid folly? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2541 "2019-09-04T14:21:50Z")
Not the way it looks now. And don’t blame Rise for this. This was planned, and he caught flack for _warning_ us. Rise is the good guy here. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2542 "2019-09-04T16:22:50Z")
Okay, in that case: when is the EA or BO exec going to get the boot over this folly? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2543 "2019-09-04T16:28:39Z")
You mean the CEO? I wouldn’t expect anything before Q4 2020 on that. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2544 "2019-09-04T16:29:17Z")
Disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Flashmala](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/flashmala/32/412126_2.png) [@Flashmala](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Flashmala)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2545 "2019-09-04T17:18:51Z")
And if I want to travel in my Rorqual using the Cyno I, I need to train cyno alts to racial Cruiser V to be able to fly the force recons to light my cynos! If CCP thinks I’m paying cash for skill injectors to accomplish that… NOT! What a lack of foresight this is, but to quote Hilmar - " act more and think less". ---
**Author:** ![Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/forum_posting_alt/32/254303_2.png) [@Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Forum_Posting_Alt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2546 "2019-09-04T17:27:04Z")
As you went of topic, this should (although not 100% accurate - its good enough) help with that bloc stuff: IMPERIUM Membership: 45389 Total income: 19776 Income per head: 435m LEGACY Membership: 40470 Total income: 10691 Income per head: 264m PANFAM Membership: 26856 Total income: 6775 Income per head: 252m Winter Co. Membership: 19163 Total income: 7690 Income per head: 401m So the 2 ‘blocs’ are (obviously its more complex than that, but for arguments sake): Imperium/Legacy (frenemies - aid each other against ‘pandafam’) 85,000 members 29000 bn income (in July) Pandafam (Panfam/Winter): 45,000 members 14500 bn income (in July) ---
**Author:** ![Lyn\_Fel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lyn_fel/32/367106_2.png) [@Lyn\_Fel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lyn_Fel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2547 "2019-09-04T17:59:38Z")
> [@CCP\_Rise](#): > > This September… Are these changes being included in the September 10th “Wormholes & Stars Visual Update”? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2548 "2019-09-04T18:01:54Z")
FRT’s officially joined PanFam. I don’t know where you’re putting Darkness, Ranger Regiment, and the rest of GotG/Deadco, but they’re pretty clearly not part of PanFam or aligned with them, given how they helped burn down Tribute and Tenal. ---
**Author:** ![Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/forum_posting_alt/32/254303_2.png) [@Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Forum_Posting_Alt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2549 "2019-09-04T18:12:54Z")
Not included GotG/Deadco: GotG/Dead Co. Membership: 13302 Total income: 6979 bn I’ve alluded to difficulties, and we’ve talked about this before 🙂 - for example: snuff is closely aligned to Init (part of Imperium), but regularly kills Goons (Imperium) and GotG (sort _haha_ of Imperium pets) and almost everyone else for that matter (but alot of GotG atm) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2550 "2019-09-04T18:20:23Z")
and what’s left of ProviBloc? Also, do your numbers take into account that some of the July MER’s statistics include a chunk of August? (June and July MERs were kinda… slipshod in that, probably because they came so late.) ---
**Author:** ![Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/forum_posting_alt/32/254303_2.png) [@Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Forum_Posting_Alt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2551 "2019-09-04T18:24:44Z")
Provi: Provi Block Membership: 5309 Total income: 1544 bn There are lots of other entities, but I’m not sure of how to ‘bloc’ them, if indeed they warrant it. Good point, I was in a hurry and just input all the figures from July MER regardless, should make the next MER even more interesting (better pay more attention next time!) So these blocs account for 150k characters, how many real players that makes would be interesting to know (but we dont have the data from CCP to do that - each of the alliances could probably pool data (ESI etc) - but thats not going to happen!!!) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2552 "2019-09-04T18:29:28Z")
Varies by alliance, but as a _rough_ estimate, I’d say use about 1/4 the number of characters, and expect that to be… high. ---
**Author:** ![Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/forum_posting_alt/32/254303_2.png) [@Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Forum_Posting_Alt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2553 "2019-09-04T18:30:18Z")
I’d tend to agree, especially on the ‘high’ bit ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2554 "2019-09-04T18:34:04Z")
Also remember that just looking at null income doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of alliance/null _player_ incomine. A lot of us have considerable trading or other revenue streams in HS, LW, FW, j-space… TEST, for example, has production facilities in Perimeter, so they make money off of everyone who’s using their low-cost Engineering Complexes to push that ‘Total Production by Region’ higher… in _The Forge_. And they own the Tranquility Trade Towers, etc. Basically, like any large organization, there’s a huge amount of diversification going on with all of the significant null blocs (even smaller ones like DeadCo). ---
**Author:** ![Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/forum_posting_alt/32/254303_2.png) [@Forum\_Posting\_Alt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Forum_Posting_Alt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2555 "2019-09-04T18:39:14Z")
Also very true, I’ve just used Mining and NPC data in null - I’m not looking at sinks and faucets, obviously, or at the trade/industry figures The TTT stuff is not just TEST though, profits are shared with Panfam and Imperium… Which means that only very rough generalised data can be drawn, but there is always worth in large ‘macro’ level data, even if the ‘micro’ level stuff is a bit off… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2556 "2019-09-04T18:40:07Z")
They are, but TEST gets the lion’s share of it, having assumed the risk and basically absorbed the majority of the costs. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Zimmer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_zimmer/32/475633_2.png) [@James\_Zimmer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Zimmer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2558 "2019-09-05T02:48:09Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > When the decision is between losing a significant timer or commiting a small number of supers, you will see groups start forming earlier, and committing a _massive_ number of supers. I’m talking about making it difficult to move a large number of supers quickly. If they make the massive effort to move a large number days in advance for a timer, they make themselves vulnerable elsewhere. This is just a way of ignoring what I’m actually proposing. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Hah. Those are exactly the ships those modules were introduced for. Maybe that was a poor design decision, maybe it should be reversed. Stuff like that happens in games all the time. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Let’s look at how this gets laid out: If it’s a stop bubble… I’m talking about anchorable bubbles, which, as far as I’m aware, CD’s can’t jump. Place a large T2 bubble on the gate. It’s got too much HP for a single CD (or even a small fleet of them) to burn quickly, and has enough range to make diving toward a gate a long, slow process. If you need to go, say 10 jumps to an objective, that is going to take an awful long time, especially if the objective suddenly changes because you got baited into committing to a diversion. ---
**Author:** ![James\_Zimmer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_zimmer/32/475633_2.png) [@James\_Zimmer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Zimmer)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2559 "2019-09-05T03:04:29Z")
> [@Halo58](#): > > Are you basing any of this off of things you have seen/been a part of or are these hypothetical scenarios bases on hypothetical player tendencies? Actual experience living in nullsec, though some of it is hypothetical of course, no one has ever been introduced to these sorts of mechanics. I can’t know for sure how people will react. > [@Halo58](#): > > These are eve players. If you make moving supers tedious, they will still do it no matter how painful. They will just complain and possibly burn out. Everyone wants fights, but nobody is going to sideline the things they need to win voluntarily regardless of how painful and annoying they are to use. It would only be super tedious for large numbers of ships in a short time frame, extend the timeframe or reduce the number of ships and it doesn’t change much. Also, there are limits to what players will do. Committing multiple battleship fleets each spread over thousands of kilometers to serve as cynos probably passes that limit, not to mention the fact that such a fleet is directly counterable with stuff like stealth bombers and it leaves your capital fleet scattered all over the place, out of range of reps. Even assuming people will do whatever it takes to win, it would have to be asked: Is committing our entire super force to this fight worth supers not being available for anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197/2560 "2019-09-05T03:14:42Z")
> [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > I’m talking about making it difficult to move a large number of supers quickly. If you’re talking about timers, no, you’re not. You’re talking about something people know about at least a day in advance, and have time to plan for. And again: Gating supers is not as slow as you seem to think it is. No, this is not a way of ignoring what you’re proposing. I am telling you that what you are proposing will only result in people taking more time to make more preparations, or the fights simply _not happening_. > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > Maybe that was a poor design decision, maybe it should be reversed. Stuff like that happens in games all the time. And if this was one of those games, I’d agree. But this is a game where the developers can’t even remember to iterate on things for over a year, and keep insisting ‘that won’t happen’ when the players outline _exactly_ how they’ll respond to things. > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > I’m talking about anchorable bubbles “Stop bubble” and “drag bubble” refer _only_ to their position, ie: a bubble that drags you past the gate, or stops you before the gate. It can be a dictor bubble OR and anchorable bubble. You’ll notice I didn’t say use the CDs to kill it. You use the F/Bs to kill it, and use the CDs to bounce out to a perch so the fleet can warp sideways, then back down to the gate. Do you actually have any experience with using bubbles, fleet travel, or moving supers? > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > Also, there are limits to what players will do. Committing multiple battleship fleets each spread over thousands of kilometers to serve as cynos probably passes that limit Not really. > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > not to mention the fact that such a fleet is directly counterable with stuff like stealth bombers That battleship fleet is carrying destroyers with defender launchers. They all do, because bombers already exist and already need to be countered. Multiple cyno locations actually means the bombers have _less_ chance to focus on a single target area to attack. > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > and it leaves your capital fleet scattered all over the place, out of range of reps. Each capital fleet comes in with its own faxes, and unless you bubble them up (which won’t last long), the FCs will just all fleet warp to a specific bookmark that’s been set up ahead of time. > [@James\_Zimmer](#): > > Even assuming people will do whatever it takes to win, it would have to be asked: Is committing our entire super force to this fight worth supers not being available for anything else? Which is why… > [@Arrendis](#): > > As long as supers are necessary to hold space, they won’t be committed in small numbers frequently enough to reduce the overall size of the supercapital fleets fielding them. Won’t happen. It’s just not worth the risk. And if they’re not being risked, that means the supercapital fleets will keep growing. Battlefield conditions will be more and more stacked toward defense. Stagnation will increase. As you’ve been told multiple times already. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197.md?page=123) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/chaos-era-continues-cyno-update/182197.md?page=125)