# Citadel Asset Safety and Player Retention **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [February 16, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816 "2024-02-16T16:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![roxxkatt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roxxkatt/32/411282_2.png) [@roxxkatt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/roxxkatt)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/1 "2024-02-16T16:42:52Z")
EVE is a game where many different players can do many different things. Some enjoy blowing up ships, and others enjoy building them. I personally belong to the second group. Long ago, I personally built citadels and freighters (and would have built capitals if they were allowed in hisec). I did my own moon mining and made my own PI to fund my builds, and even did my own reactions in lowsec. (I also ran vanguard incursions for fun, but that’s not related to this topic) As a bonus, for a period of a few years back then if you bought a T1 ship module in Jita/Forge/Lonetrek there is a very high chance you were probably buying something I personally made. Then beginning a few years ago, CCP decided the nullsec blocks were building too much and began a war against the manufacturing economy, starting with changes to rorquals, then removing moon mining, then changes to citadels, and more. Clearly in the present it is now obvious that CCP’s self imposed recession has worked and CCP was successful, as you no longer see azbels/sotiyos/tataras in hisec/lowsec anymore, and the few raitarus that are left are rare and have taxes greater than or equal to NPC station taxes, and even the huge TTQ/ICY refineries/sotiyos next to jita are being taken down now. Not too long after, my corp/alliance became pretty inactive and I personally stopped playing EVE for years, and have been playing other games that are far less of a grind. A year after I left, CCP made a change removing citadel asset safety, and I actually had to log back into EVE to move all my stuff to stations for the now unlikely event that I would return to EVE. Some people like @Seviron_Aldari weren’t so lucky and had all their stuff deleted without notice and now want to delete their accounts: [Allow account deletion feature](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/allow-account-deletion-feature/263409) Personally, I feel like removing the asset safety system would at the very minimum would require sending an email out to every player who had any asset in a structure at risk, but that didn’t happen and a lot more people probably had pretty severe losses and will never return. Currently, the asset safety in citadel completely stops functioning if the structure owner removes the fuel blocks after a week. For people who play religiously every day or for people that know nothing about manufacturing or never have to start large jobs, this isn’t too big of an issue. For everyone else, like people who have jobs and need to be away (people like me) or want to take 2 week vacations, this becomes a gamebreaking issue. For people like me who are manufacturing huge items that cost over 2 billion isk just to start the job and take literally over a month to complete, this is a huge issue, including the fact that the BPOs to build a citadel cost billions, and every single item in that structure is at risk, which is in fact an unacceptable level of risk. Even back then, starting large jobs was a huge risk, and I have already lost that “billions of isk fee to begin the job” a few times, for example an azbel owner containing one of my jobs got a wardec, panicked, then offlined all services, killing my job. In fact, I recently returned to EVE this week to reevaluate the viability of this game, and quite literally within one week I was proven correct by the new scam of “set up citadel, wait, close docking, remove fuel blocks, destroy” in quite literally the first week of returning. As correctly predicted by @Nevyn_Auscent in 2020: > [@Variable Asset Safety](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/variable-asset-safety/223565/2): > > As always, this would just cause people to not store stuff in upwell structures. > Oh and introduce a new undetectable scam of getting people to put stuff in a structure then blocking access and low powering it. > The downsides to not having asset safety are quite simply worse than the benefits. I also fully agree with @Mkikaden_Tiragen: > [@We need a mechanism to starve stations to force them into abandoned state](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/we-need-a-mechanism-to-starve-stations-to-force-them-into-abandoned-state/246507/62): > > I don’t want asset safety to be player-driven at all - I think that goes against the nature of asset safety and should be avoided at all costs. I outlined some bare minimums to approach making it not totally game breaking, but I still will not advocate for it. **This entire issue could easily be fixed with a simple change of having normally functioning asset safety, or if CCP deems that a not good enough solution it can be limited to normally functioning asset safety in hisec/lowsec only instead.** As a returning manufacturing player, what reasons do I have to stay when PLEX now costs double/triple what it used to, being limited to alpha skills, being prevented from training alpha skills as an alpha pilot, when taxes now cost 5 times more than what they used to and exceeding any profits made in solo manufacturing in stations only with no manufacturing bonuses, with all my market slots locked away? What does your game offer that other games don’t? Some PVP only users may say things like “I fly ships only and never do manufacturing, why should I care?”. Those people can ask themselves two very simple questions in response: “Who builds the ships that I fly? What happens to my wallet when all those people go away and the laws of supply and demand make the ships I fly much more expensive as a direct result?” It seems the real consequence of CCP’s actions is that they have actually accidentally benefited the large nullsec alliances more than anyone else instead, as now they and only they can take advantage of the manufacturing bonuses given by citadels that only they are able to defend. For the rest of us, the old saying for unacceptable levels of risk rings true: “Never undock anything you can not afford to lose.” Until a change is made the only winning strategy is to not play. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/2 "2024-02-16T22:30:19Z")
> [@roxxkatt](#): > > being limited to alpha skills, being prevented from training alpha skills as an alpha pilot what? Since its inception, Alpha pilots could only train up to 5 mil SP. after that you need to use either the Alpha Injectors or regular injectors to reach 20+ mil SP. As far as Asset Safety, yea i didn’t think it was a cool thing for CCP to do. Which if you ask a WHoler, they’ll tell you its fair considering they don’t get asset safety. CCP also thought the new rule with Abandonded mode, would prevent citadel spam, and it did. because everyone and their mother who had a citadel and weren’t playing, saw them go pop and got turned into huge loot pinatas. ---
**Author:** ![roxxkatt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roxxkatt/32/411282_2.png) [@roxxkatt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/roxxkatt)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 9:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/3 "2024-03-22T09:18:13Z")
> [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](#): > > Since its inception, Alpha pilots could only train up to 5 mil SP this is an entirely different topic, but even so if most skills are behind a paywall, what’s the point of a maximum SP cap anyways? ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/4 "2024-03-22T12:14:41Z")
I remember when things in eve cost a reasonable amount. Those days are long gone. Every update seems to be about making the game really ■■■■ for anyone trying to do anything on their own. I remember a guy once telling me he wanted to build a freighter by himself. Including mining all the materials. I can’t imagine how much of a pain in the ■■■■■■■ arse that would be today. ---
**Author:** ![roxxkatt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roxxkatt/32/411282_2.png) [@roxxkatt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/roxxkatt)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/5 "2024-03-24T12:57:44Z")
that’s literally how i got my freighter imo freighters are way easier to build than citadels because they arent 85% PI materials ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/6 "2024-03-24T13:12:01Z")
From memory it was just raw minerals, but a lot of them. Now you have to line the pockets of your enemies to build anything worth having. ---
**Author:** ![roxxkatt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roxxkatt/32/411282_2.png) [@roxxkatt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/roxxkatt)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2024, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/7 "2024-03-27T10:19:15Z")
> **[Raitaru | Eros Ho | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/116457887/)** > > (Eros Ho) lost their Raitaru in Sobaseki (Lonetrek). Final Blow by Follow Gunner (SCREECHING GRASS) flying in a Kronos. Total Value: 3,887,807,157.38 ISK here is one kill in one literal years long war from only one scamming entity out of many that serves as an excellent illustration of CCP’s incompetence. note how they are attacking their own structure. it seems CCP helping you steal from other people is highly lucrative! good luck explaining this scam to new eve players. ---
**Author:** ![Xen\_Ming](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xen_ming/32/423636_2.png) [@Xen\_Ming](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xen_Ming)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 12:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/9 "2024-06-12T00:44:01Z")
> [@roxxkatt](#): > > Those people can ask themselves two very simple questions in response: “Who builds the ships that I fly? What happens to my wallet when all those people go away and the laws of supply and demand make the ships I fly much more expensive as a direct result?” They dont care my friend, EVE Industry is run by gruesome greedy oligarchs like in RL. The same ones that say: - Dont mine, isnt worth. - Dont PI, is boring. - Dont research BPO, T2, ist too much sp investment and no ISK. - Dont learn how to react, T3 chain… much complicated. - Dont savage, why bother. Dont produce any commodity, just generate flat ISK inflation and buy to US, to raise the prices 2, 3 or 4 ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE. ¿Do you think that with Metenox prices of moon ores will fall? 🤣 All this happens because INDUSTRY IS POWER. And they dont want it to be scattered, just you to be enough desperate for ISK (fake print-able smoke) to join their farms. RMT trading is a fact and I dont mean goldsellers. Some people very influential people is getting RICH in RL, just by milking their cows. The elephant in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Andlaust](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andlaust/32/422007_2.png) [@Andlaust](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andlaust)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/10 "2024-06-16T18:43:48Z")
Holy Wall of Whinyness, Batman. Can you give us a tl;dr? Because I’m not trying to filter the stray rational thought out of that vomit of complaints and tin foil hattery. For future reference, try to keep the indignation and obvious resentment to the odd sentence. It shouldn’t make the bulk of an idea suggestion thread. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/11 "2024-06-16T20:01:52Z")
> [@Xen\_Ming](#): > > > [@roxxkatt](#): > > > > Those people can ask themselves two very simple questions in response: “Who builds the ships that I fly? What happens to my wallet when all those people go away and the laws of supply and demand make the ships I fly much more expensive as a direct result?” > > They dont care my friend, Change the completely ridiculous material requirements back to what they used to be, and I will build my own ships, like it used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Andlaust](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andlaust/32/422007_2.png) [@Andlaust](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andlaust)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/12 "2024-06-16T20:58:00Z")
The low end stuff is still easy to make. Just build up to your level of competence. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 10:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/13 "2024-06-16T22:37:47Z")
My level of “competence” now or 2 years ago? because the two are extremely different. ---
**Author:** ![Andlaust](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andlaust/32/422007_2.png) [@Andlaust](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andlaust)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/14 "2024-06-17T14:50:08Z")
If I have to spell it out for you, maybe you’re right and you shouldn’t be doing industry. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![roxxkatt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/roxxkatt/32/411282_2.png) [@roxxkatt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/roxxkatt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/15 "2024-07-12T17:48:59Z")
new youtube video just dropped seems some people are noticing [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/0/5/c/05cb0554054dd2415fc189abd01403c9beb400a3.jpeg "Station Loot Pinata bait scam | EVE Online") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxOT7MXj5i0) ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/16 "2024-07-12T21:39:43Z")
I don’t do anything in EVE any more precisely because of the additional levels of convolution and time wasting. How does that make you feel? ---
**Author:** ![Andlaust](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andlaust/32/422007_2.png) [@Andlaust](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andlaust)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/17 "2024-07-12T22:44:32Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > How does that make you feel? Apathy? That’s the term for when you don’t care, right? Yeah, apathy is what I feel, or rather don’t feel. Can I have your stuff since you’re not doing anything with it? ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dark_lord_trump/32/411482_2.png) [@Dark\_Lord\_Trump](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dark_Lord_Trump)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2024, 4:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/18 "2024-07-13T04:21:15Z")
Forsaken fortress was a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2024, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/19 "2024-07-13T20:29:57Z")
What will you do with it if there’s no one else playing the game? ---
**Author:** ![Andlaust](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andlaust/32/422007_2.png) [@Andlaust](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andlaust)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/20 "2024-07-13T20:49:18Z")
Thought you didn’t do “anything in EVE any more”? To answer your question, I’ll go play whatever game steps in to fill the niche? Aren’t niche games wonderful? One of the lovely things about a niche game is that it fills a niche. Understand that in the universe of niche games, they exist as long as the demand for the genre is there, so your participation is simply not needed for it to continue on. But since that blatant absurdity isn’t likely to happen, I don’t stress over it. So are you giving me your stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816/21 "2024-07-14T02:13:07Z")
Could you elaborate on this? I would agree, but I’d like to hear your reasoning on why you think it was a mistake. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/citadel-asset-safety-and-player-retention/439816.md?page=2)