# Cloaky Camping - From a Wormholer's Perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** null-sec, wormhole, pvp\ **Created:** [January 5, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717 "2021-01-05T16:30:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dravick\_Afterthought](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dravick_afterthought/32/282017_2.png) [@Dravick\_Afterthought](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dravick_Afterthought)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 9:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/81 "2021-02-09T09:19:52Z")
> [@Kaivarian\_Coste](#): > > If they’re not AFK, they can react and either move away from you or warp off. If they are AFK, with some active gameplay you can decloak them. Which completely destroys the ability to lurk cloaked and unsuspected (but not afk) in J-space - may as well enable Local there while you’re at it. All so null-sec krabs can krab in null in complete safety, and sod anyone who plays elsewhere… ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 9:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/82 "2021-02-09T09:48:43Z")
No you can’t farm totally safe in 0.0. Zkillbpoard proof it. It’s not beacause you are to bad to bad to catch farmer without cloack other person are as bad as you. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/83 "2021-02-09T09:50:45Z")
> [@Kaivarian\_Coste](#): > > I’ve probed **stationary** ships, warped directly to them and **landed up to 10km away**. This is a flat out lie, since you _always_ warp within a 2km sphere when you directly warp to anything, be it a structure, gate, another ship, fleet member, etc. Edit: like seriously, in your entire EVE career, have you ever combat probed any stationary object, like an MTU or a Mobile Depot that you forgot to bookmark. At any point in your entire EVE lifetime, did you warp to an MTU and landed 10km away from a **STATIONARY** object? Like, you can go and test this _right now_. Ask a friend to afk in some random deadspace. Or combat probe ANYTHING that’s probe-able right now. get a 100% scan, and warp directly to it. Tell me how many times out of 10 you land at a distance of 10km away from the object you just scanned down. ---
**Author:** ![Kaivarian\_Coste](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaivarian_coste/32/413759_2.png) [@Kaivarian\_Coste](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaivarian_Coste)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/84 "2021-02-09T10:22:25Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > Edit: like seriously, in your entire EVE career, have you ever combat probed any stationary object where do you think i pulled the 10km figure from? maybe something else can explain why i’ve landed up to 10km away from stationary ships. maybe they moved a little inbetween the time i probed them until i landed. all i know is that there’d be times where i’d land on a stationary Venture huffing gas, beyond my meta warp scrambler’s range, allowing the enemy to react and get away. edit: tested on different ships you look to be right. i guess my targets were in the process of stopping when i’d probe them down. ---
**Author:** ![Clary\_Daemon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/clary_daemon/32/253040_2.png) [@Clary\_Daemon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Clary_Daemon)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/85 "2021-02-09T13:47:26Z")
I keep lists of people that come into the area frequently, as well as those that come my way but I don’t see a clear filament, wh, or killmail. This is a game of lists. Local won’t be taken away. It’s a pipedream for wh people because You want Everyone else to be Forced to play like You. You forget, I and others keep alts at every jump gate, especially the choke points they Must come through. We have several people scanning for wormholes at all times, and I even park ships cloaked by drifter holes. The only people getting in is filaments, without being noticed. Again, you’re not going to convince ccp to remove local. They tried, it failed, they lost a portion of the player base. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/86 "2021-02-09T14:27:25Z")
> [@Kaivarian\_Coste](#): > > It only gives you the location of a cloaked ship. You’ll still need to decloak it. You don’t automatically land on top of a ship after it’s been probed. I’ve probed stationary ships, warped directly to them and landed up to 10km away. A cloaked ship will remain cloaked. > > If they’re not AFK, they can react and either move away from you or warp off. If they are AFK, with some active gameplay you can decloak them. I have made a similar suggestion in the past, but this suggestion has too much impact on legitimate cloaking strategies in my opinion. The main issue with probes that can scan cloaky campers is that it is too strong against checking a single grid for cloaked ships, either because you know they are there, or because you want to make sure they aren’t. For example, it completely defeats sitting in a cloaked sabre at a relic site to pounce on explorers, when they can check the site for cloaks. Also, it defeats bombing runs when you know they are there. They won’t be able to position themselves for a well timed bomb run if the enemy can warp right on top of cloaked ships on grid in a single scan. Both of those playstyles are fun, active and have multiple counterplay options available. A probe that can find those ships would severely impact those playstyles. Afk cloaky camping needs to be addressed, but legitimate cloaking strategies should not be impacted this heavily. ---
**Author:** ![Hans\_Devin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hans_devin/32/373511_2.png) [@Hans\_Devin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hans_Devin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/87 "2021-02-09T15:23:19Z")
There is a simple solution…a bot check and the cloaky has to x all the crosswalk pictures. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/88 "2021-02-09T15:35:02Z")
_Please check all the squares of space containing a cloaky Loki to prove you’re not a bot!_ ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/89 "2021-02-09T17:39:34Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > If you want a remove local area go to WH. Or we could remove local from everywhere, and the nullbear trash can STFU and deal with it. > Only trash pvpbear want remove local, and after they cry when people stop play beacause the game is to unbalance in favor of pvpbear. Ah yes, the standard nullbear failure to understand that not all players are as weak as they are. Nullbear trash will stop farming if they can’t have 100% guaranteed safety, but plenty of people will continue playing and doing PvE. EVE is supposed to be survival of the fittest, and it’s long past time to take out the nullbear trash. > No it dont make the game more healthy. 100% wrong. It made the game better. It made _CCP’s profits_ worse. CCP made the pragmatic business decision that maximizing subscription revenue from renter trash and RMT botters is better than having a quality game, just like every F2P mobile developer sacrifices gameplay quality to maximize cash shop revenue. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/90 "2021-02-09T17:42:27Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > No you can’t farm totally safe in 0.0. Yes you can, if you aren’t a complete idiot. It is literally impossible to catch an aligned ship that is watching local. The minimum time between entering the system (and therefore appearing in local) and being able to activate a warp disruptor on a target is far longer than the ~1-2 seconds required for the farmer to notice a name appear in local and click “warp”. The only way to catch a farmer is if they aren’t paying attention and don’t react immediately. ---
**Author:** ![Fale\_Einn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fale_einn/32/477432_2.png) [@Fale\_Einn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fale_Einn)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/91 "2021-02-09T17:44:47Z")
Yah, that’s what I mean about them having blown it. There’s a finite number of places to go once one leaves a gate, this can be tracked. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/92 "2021-02-09T17:45:38Z")
> [@Clary\_Daemon](#): > > I keep lists of people that come into the area frequently, as well as those that come my way but I don’t see a clear filament, wh, or killmail. But how long do you keep those lists? Can you honestly say that you have a list of every single ship that passed through each gate within the past 6 months? Because if you don’t then without local you don’t know if my covert cyno alt is still in your system, and you certainly don’t know if that alt is logged in or not. > Again, you’re not going to convince ccp to remove local. Yes, and? I acknowledge that, like every F2P mobile trash developer, CCP is making the business decision to sacrifice gameplay quality in an attempt to maximize income. They’d rather have tons of renter trash and RMT botters paying $15/month than a quality game with fewer people. But that doesn’t change the fact that removing local is a necessary solution. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/93 "2021-02-09T17:49:57Z")
> [@Fale\_Einn](#): > > Yah, that’s what I mean about them having blown it. There’s a finite number of places to go once one leaves a gate, this can be tracked. Eh… do you mean immediately after cloaking up? Because once that cloaked ship is in warp, there is _no_ way you can find it again if it doesn’t want to be found. It warps off to planet 5, asteroid belt 3 at 30km, then off to planet 2, asteroid belt 1 at 70, drops a bookmark in between, warps back to the bookmark at 100 and starts burning in a random direction where it sits for the next couple of months. Good luck decloaking that one! ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/94 "2021-02-09T17:54:53Z")
Its presence on grid can sometimes be determined. If you sit 30k off of a gate, for example, you would not normally be on-grid with the gate - but if there is a cloaked ship halfway between you and the gate, you might still be on-grid with the gate. Also, the client seems to know if a new ship lands on grid, regardless of whether that ship is cloaked. So, it is only “virtually” impossible to find the cloaked ship. With enough effort, if the ship is someplace dumb and not moving, it might be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/95 "2021-02-09T18:00:23Z")
> [@Xeux](#): > > Its presence on grid can sometimes be determined. If you sit 30k off of a gate, for example, you would not normally be on-grid with the gate - but if there is a cloaked ship halfway between you and the gate, you might still be on-grid with the gate. That’s an interesting point! This could indeed be the case, but even then the area this cloaked ship could be in is simply too large to find it. You could accidentally find it, like a meteor could accidentally hit your head, but it’s just not likely. And this is in the case you know the grid it’s on. If the cloaky is somewhere in system, they have to _really_ mess up to be found. ---
**Author:** ![Fale\_Einn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fale_einn/32/477432_2.png) [@Fale\_Einn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fale_Einn)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/97 "2021-02-09T18:36:08Z")
You two,Gerard Amatin and Xeux, are getting very close to figuring this out. Sorry about to post above, it was linked to someone sort of random, I’m not sure how I did that. ---
**Author:** ![Clary\_Daemon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/clary_daemon/32/253040_2.png) [@Clary\_Daemon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Clary_Daemon)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/98 "2021-02-09T19:25:09Z")
Tbh I haven’t thrown my notebook of lists away in the last 3 years. I can be reasonably sure there are no cloaked campers. If one pops up from before I moved to the area, I can simply operate in one of Dozens of nearby systems, and keep an eye on the camper, in case they cyno people in, or people bridge in. I don’t look too hard at the previous pages in my notebook, but if I feel the need, I will. Taking local away isn’t necessary. It’s something wormholers want to happen so they aren’t required to change their style and precautions when they go to null. It isn’t an upgrade to quality. It serves no purpose, other than make wormholers feel better about themselves. You don’t seem to understand the financial burden a company like ccp has. They literally owe hundreds of millions of dollars to their new owners. Servers and connections cost money. They have to pay game developers and moderators. This game Needs players for it to continue existing. Perhaps you’re ok with killing eve for your temporary enjoyment. Nobody else is. Especially those of us invested into this game. In the 3 years I’ve played, just on subscription costs, I’ve put over $19,000 into this. A 10 year veteran that only pays 1 account has only paid just over $1000. I don’t know how many alts you have, or if you plex instead of pay. Regardless, I am heavily invested, and I’d love to keep playing this game for another decade or more. To that end, ccp has to keep making changes to bring people in and keep them. We, as a community, have to be open to these new players. Except a few toxic individuals, this community has been very nice and generous. The worst thing they could do is double down on making life hard on players. You have wormholes for people that enjoy it. You have null for people that enjoy it. You have lowsec for people that enjoy it. You have highsec for people that enjoy it. The real problem to address right now is how the korean owners are pressuring ccp to turn into a korean grind game. There is a reason korean grinders don’t typically make it in the western world. Since the western world is the primary player base, they should work on keeping it enjoyable and rewarding for us. We already spend years on skills, and long periods of time gathering resources. Stop trying to drive those rewards down. War takes resources and isk. If the majority of null is to keep playing, we need to stock up for war easier, not be starved out. This is a pvp game. When you starve resources, including ore and isk, you start drying up pvp. If this continued, eve will devolve into a korean “space farming simulator”. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/99 "2021-02-09T21:53:20Z")
> [@Clary\_Daemon](#): > > I can be reasonably sure there are no cloaked campers Well yes, because of local. My whole point here is that your comment that if CCP removes local “the only thing I won’t see coming is the random wormholes” is false. In the absence of local there are multiple ways of getting into a system that you won’t be able to see coming, and this is good for the game. > Taking local away isn’t necessary. It really is. 100% safe farming in the supposed most dangerous space in EVE is bad game design. Maybe local can remain in highsec where things are supposed to be mostly safe, but in nullsec it has to go no matter how much the RMT botters whine and cry about it. > You don’t seem to understand the financial burden a company like ccp has. I understand perfectly well how the money works, and I’ve said very clearly that good game design and maximum profits are in conflict here just like they are with F2P mobile trash. F2P developers have a profit incentive to make the game suck for 99% of the players to maximize cash shop purchases from the whales, CCP has a profit incentive to make changes that are bad for the game but effectively generate income from the RMT botters and renter trash. > In the 3 years I’ve played, just on subscription costs, I’ve put over $19,000 into this. 1. You have major addiction problems. 2. A game where players have 30+ accounts is a badly designed game. > Stop trying to drive those rewards down. I’m not. I’m trying to _increase_ those rewards. Remember how supply and demand works, the easier a task is the less the rewards from it are worse because the market is flooded with excess supply. Making PvE more difficult increases the rewards for the players who are competent enough to claim them. > If the majority of null is to keep playing, we need to stock up for war easier, not be starved out. Adapt or die. If you are so terrified of loss that you won’t engage in a war unless you have vast reserves of wealth and can immediately replace all of your losses without caring then you deserve to be evicted from your space by people who don’t suck at EVE. Scarcity makes losses and conflict mean something, and your version of “PvP” needs to die. ---
**Author:** ![Skriven\_Penshar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/skriven_penshar/32/249904_2.png) [@Skriven\_Penshar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Skriven_Penshar)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/100 "2021-02-09T22:05:21Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > Not to mention, if a cloaked camper is present, opsec dictates we operate in another system with our big toys. > > And again, this is why local is a problem. Without local you have to consider every single system threatened and either actively protect your big toys or never use them. Local makes it way too easy to only bring them out when you can 100% guarantee that no threat is present and there is no chance of losing them. I don’t see that as a problem. That is just smart tactics using the tools provided (Local). I’ve always thought removing local was a cure to the so-called problem of AFK cloaky camping. If there is no local, then there is no need to place AFK cloaky campers in a system. The major use of AFK CC right now is that it keeps people from undocking and farming the system. The only way they know someone is in system is through Local. Or in the case of @Clary_Daemon a robust intel system. If there is no local the power of the AFK camper is neutered. They become obsolete and a waste of time/ISK. Keep local. Make cloakies truly cloaky and remove them from local while cloaked. Makes it somewhat easier to hunt ratters/miners, but the ones that are good will still have a chance to get away. > [@Clary\_Daemon](#): > > Taking local away isn’t necessary. It’s something wormholers want to happen so they aren’t required to change their style and precautions when they go to null. Not all of us want it to happen. Going to null to explore relic sites is a vacation for me. Local is a warm cuddly security blanket ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717/101 "2021-02-09T22:09:03Z")
> [@Skriven\_Penshar](#): > > I don’t see that as a problem. Then you are wrong. It should not be possible to farm in nullsec with effectively 100% safety. > Local is a warm cuddly security blanket And here you prove my point. Nullsec is supposed to be the cold and brutal wasteland where the only safety is what you seize for yourself by force. You are not supposed to have a security blanket, if you want that then go back to highsec. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/cloaky-camping-from-a-wormholers-perspective/288717.md?page=6)