# CODE: From the Perspective of a Non-Miner **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** pve, pvp, high-sec\ **Created:** [July 30, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638 "2020-07-30T18:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/302 "2020-09-22T00:59:58Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > Yet you ask that of me to validate what I am saying and calling a hypothetical unreasonable. > I do understand that thing are not as black and white as that, and was simply offering opposing standpoint. I’m not asking you to validate anything; just not to cherry-pick data to use as examples. > [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > My whole point was that there are few multibill isk kills, but they do drasticly alter the average value. That is the point you dismissed out of hand claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about. Yes, but not by nearly as much as you think. If (arbitrarily) the average kill is worth 175 million ISK, and the top 5 kills are worth about 10 billion each, if you remove them as outliers, your new average is about 125 million ISK. But what if we remove about 200 empty pods? Then the average jumps to 160 million ISK. High-value kills are an integral part of CODE.'s activity, that can’t be denied. However, removing them won’t push you into “only Ventures” territory. Don’t forget that, as I’ve said before, CODE.'s average kill value exceeds those of the most powerful null-sec alliances, which routinely destroy expensive supercapital ships. Does this mean that if we remove those supercapital kills, that the only other stuff those alliances are killing is T1 tackler frigates? ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/303 "2020-09-22T01:03:39Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Yes, but not by nearly as much as you think. If (arbitrarily) the average kill is worth 175 million ISK, and the top 5 kills are worth about 10 billion each, if you remove them as outliers, your new average is about 125 million ISK. But what if we remove about 200 empty pods? Then the average jumps to 160 million ISK. You are comparing removing 2 factors with removing 200, that is unreasonable, but that aside, difference between 125 and 175 is significant. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/304 "2020-09-22T01:06:05Z")
I do not disagree to what you say, as much as the way you say it. Or is condecendingly dismissing someones point considered normal for you. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/305 "2020-09-22T01:14:24Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > You are comparing removing 2 factors with removing 200, that is unreasonable, but that aside, difference between 125 and 175 is significant. it actually isn’t, because you’re removing outliers. Empty pods _usually_ aren’t representative of veteran/wealth status. It’s like if you’re trying to establish the average penetration power of a specific type of bullet, you wouldn’t count all of the duds as “0” in your calculation. Similarly, the extremely high-value kills are outliers, because they don’t represent the population as a whole. It’s probably best to calculate all available data, and if not, then you’re obligated to remove _all_ outliers, and not just the convenient ones. But even if you _do_ remove _only_ the convenient outliers, then CODE. is _still_ destroying very close to 9 figures in value per kill, and that’s certainly not “Venture”-level money. > [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > I do not disagree to what you say, as much as the way you say it. Or is condecendingly dismissing someones point considered normal for you. You’ve consistently presented your argument as CODE. picking bottom-of-the-barrel rookie kills with the occasional fat hauler. Sometimes you try to dance around this using words, but that still remains your fundamental stance, at least as people are able to understand when they read your writing. If this is _not_ your intent, then you have to be clearer. If I see claims of “Ventures and 30-billion-ISK kills,” then that’s what I’m going to address. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/306 "2020-09-22T01:24:52Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > it actually isn’t, because you’re removing outliers. Empty pods _usually_ aren’t representative of veteran/wealth status. It is relevant, as we were speaking of CODE killing newbies, and you would like to remove 200 “convenient” factors to prove your point > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > You’ve consistently presented your argument as CODE. picking bottom-of-the-barrel rookie kills with the occasional fat hauler. My argument was that CODE slaughters newbies by the scores ,and you claimed they do not. Later it was turned in to this whole statistics debackle and even compared HS ganks to WH ganks claiming them the same thing lol… all in attempt to cloud the issue. And I’m the one who dances around the subject. My argument still is that CODE deliberatly target newbies, which is griefing. I never said it was against any rules of the game. After all, being an a…hole is not against any law that I’m familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Aaaarrgg](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaaarrgg/32/395089_2.png) [@Aaaarrgg](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaaarrgg)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/307 "2020-09-22T01:29:18Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > My argument still is that CODE deliberatly target newbies, which is griefing. We do not target newbies , we target non compliants of whom some may be newbies but most are not. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/308 "2020-09-22T01:32:18Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > It is relevant, as we were speaking of CODE killing newbies, and you would like to remove 200 “convenient” factors to prove your point Actually, my argument was that even if we _don’t_ do this, but _do_ remove the high-value kills, the average kill is still so high that new players can’t possibly make up the bulk of the destruction. > [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > My argument was that CODE slaughters newbies by the scores ,and you claimed they do not. Well, no, I haven’t done that. CODE. kills everything in sight, so of course there will be _many_ newbie ganks in the mix. However, they are a fairly small proportion of the **total** , and **that** is my argument. > [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > My argument still is that CODE deliberatly target newbies, which is griefing. And it’s wrong, because CODE. targets **everyone**. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/309 "2020-09-22T01:34:46Z")
[quote=“Destiny\_Corrupted, post:308, topic:257638”] And it’s wrong, because CODE. targets **everyone**. [/quot I think large percentage of “everyone” in HS are newbies. Unless I’m sourly mistaken, great deal of CODEs operations are in HS ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/310 "2020-09-22T01:36:22Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > I think large percentage of “everyone” in HS are newbies. Unless I’m sourly mistaken, great deal of CODEs operations are in HS No, you’re only mistaken about the part where you say a large percentage of everyone in high-sec being a newbie. Well, if by “large” you mean “majority.” I suppose something like 15%, for example, can still be considered “large”. As I said before, many players are simply unaware of _just how many_ older players do nothing but grind PvE in high-sec. Tens of thousands, literally. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/311 "2020-09-22T01:38:21Z")
All right, what percentage do you think newbies take in HS? I am operating under assumption there is more of them in HS than anywhere else in Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Aaaarrgg](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aaaarrgg/32/395089_2.png) [@Aaaarrgg](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aaaarrgg)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/312 "2020-09-22T01:38:33Z")
i live in highsec and im not a newbie, also most of the folk i kill are not noobs either, most are null alts trying to mine here with hilarious results 🙂 if they wanted to mine why dont they mine in Safe sec (null) why do they come to dangerous highsec ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/313 "2020-09-22T01:41:01Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > It is relevant, as we were speaking of CODE killing newbies, and you would like to remove 200 “convenient” factors to prove your point Empty pods =/= newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/314 "2020-09-22T01:41:09Z")
ok ,that is understandable considering the shortage of Tritanium in null ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/315 "2020-09-22T01:41:59Z")
Frostpacker is rather pleased with the progress in clearing the competition away from the belts. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/316 "2020-09-22T01:42:36Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Empty pods =/= newbies. in deed, but empty pods also doesn’t mean Veterans ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/317 "2020-09-22T01:45:34Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Well, if by “large” you mean “majority.” I suppose something like 15%, for example, can still be considered “large”. by large I mean percentage of new player population not HS population ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/318 "2020-09-22T01:52:28Z")
fine, fine, a switcharoo, couldn’t help my self 😇 ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/319 "2020-09-22T01:59:15Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > All right, what percentage do you think newbies take in HS? I can’t say without having access to some concrete data. But one thing I _can_ say is that a new player can be defined as a first-time player who’s, let’s say, 6 months or younger. Based on the newborn player graph (~5,000 new characters per day, or 900,000 in 6 months), and CCP’s official retention figures (7.1% 2 weeks, 4.4% 30 days, 2.4% 60+ days), I get a rough figure of about 33,000 new characters that are active over a 180-day period, and that’s before we eliminate alts (CCP stated a while ago that the amount of characters per player averages out to 1.5). So about 22,000 players are “new” in the game at any given time. Key words being “in the game,” and not “logged in at the same time.” I don’t know what the average play time per person is, but I can conclude that the amount of new players logged in at any time is going to be a fraction of that 22,000 figure. Subtract from those all of the new players who make it into organizations like Brave Newbies and EVE Uni, with big contingents of them being shipped out of high-sec right away. You’re going to get left with a few thousand “true” rookies in high-sec logged in at any given time. The period average for EVE’s player count has recently hovered around 25,000. According to CCP’s own reports, about 75% of the population lives in high-sec. So, the true new player count in high-sec is some fraction of 22,000 players (based on hours played per day) out of a pool of about 19,000 players. ---
**Author:** ![Vixie\_Trix](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vixie_trix/32/204999_2.png) [@Vixie\_Trix](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vixie_Trix)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/320 "2020-09-22T02:02:56Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > So about 22,000 players are “new” in the game at any given time. all right, perhaps even greater number falls off on the alts. but when you include returning players after a few years absence, or even if you don’t include them. 22k is a substantial number, most of whom reside in HS and is killed by CODE daily. NOT meaning all 22k killed every day, to avoid misunderstanding… ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638/321 "2020-09-22T02:06:34Z")
> [@Vixie\_Trix](#): > > all right, perhaps even greater number falls off on the alts. but when you include returning players after a few years absence, or even if you don’t include them. 22k is a substantial number, most of whom reside in HS and is killed by CODE daily. That 22,000 is out of a pool of hundreds of thousands of players. How many active accounts are playing the game at any given time? It’s six figures for sure. I’d estimate somewhere between 200,000 to 400,000 players. Three-quarters of all active characters live in high-sec. Even if we don’t adjust the 22,000 rookie figure by all of the rookies who make it out of high-sec right away, and use the lower end of the total player count for the sake of argument, that’s 22,000 out of 150,000 players. Is 22,000 players a lot? Sure. But it’s still only 15% of the total. And that’s just the _high end_ of the estimate range. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/code-from-the-perspective-of-a-non-miner/257638.md?page=17)