# Create an \*ACTUAL\* Downside to Player Piracy **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [January 24, 2023, 8:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990 "2023-01-24T08:15:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/143 "2023-02-13T16:41:42Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > I want it to be much easier to shoot them before they’re in an active situation. But by law they are innocent citizens as long as they are not flashy, they have done what the law required them to do (probably exchanged tags, paid CONCORD or killed NPCs) to get their security status back. You are not entitled to shoot people if they have obeyed the law so far and paid for their sins already. It’s like you want to beat someone up who got away with a fine, paid it and is released. What kind of justice is that? And if they are flashy, you can shoot them any time, anywhere. And even get NPC backup pretty soon, so you can use absolutely weak and cheap ships to do it. What else do you want? Just as gankers are not entitled to get every kill they desire, so aren’t antigankers. Be smart, be creative, be patient, be ready to put ISK to the table when trying to achieve something and cooperate with others. Demanding that you should be able to solo-stop any gank preparation (aka a Thrasher/Rupture/Tornado waiting at it’s spot) while they are investing a lot more time, effort and ISK to their business is a ridiculous idea. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/144 "2023-02-13T16:43:44Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > except for the tornado gankers, I have not once used a kill right See? I believe you are just unwilling to understand. We explained it clearly and easily so that even a non-PVPer can understand. But unlike what you said: > [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > I don’t expect special treatment You actually want special treatment because you are unwilling to learn how to fight back against the gankers. You think if you start crying on the forums something will change. But let me tell you this much, it doesn’t. You will still continue to be dunked on because this is a PVP game, unless you decide to learn how to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/145 "2023-02-13T16:45:42Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > But by law they are innocent citizens as long as they are not flashy Unless they have a killright I can activate, which takes too long if there are multiple targets. That’s basically the essence of my point. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/146 "2023-02-13T16:48:50Z")
But the biggest group of them that I have ever seen was 4. You cannot tell me that clicking 4 kill rights is too difficult for you. You have to know, buying security status only makes sense if you gank in expensive ships and nobody uses 50 tornados on a target in an every day fashion. You would know that if you had done any AG work in the past. You are trying to combat a problem that does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/147 "2023-02-13T16:50:35Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You cannot tell me that clicking 4 kill rights is too difficult for you. I’m saying it takes too long. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/148 "2023-02-13T16:51:08Z")
… man, this literally takes 4 seconds… ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/149 "2023-02-13T16:51:49Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > I want it to be much easier to shoot them before they’re in an active situation. I share the sentiment. There’s a lot of people currently protected by CONCORD that I’d like to shoot, too. In fact, I’d like to get shot more often, without the aid of CONCORD. So it sounds like we are both for the equal relaxing of mechanics for everyone: _anyone_ can be shot more often in high sec: you and your ganker targets, me and my kill-list targets. > [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > Firstly, the notion that killrights are irelevant I would ask, so how many sec status tags are bought and sold daily? Well, that’s how important it is to be able to activate killrights quickly. I’m not sure why that is a particularly interesting question. How many new ganker alts are rolled per day? How many Clone soldiers are farmed by ganker alts in low sec systems per day and never hit the market? How much ISK is paid to CONCORD in bribes to turn in tags? Where does that ISK come from? These questions are added to the pile, but merely saying them doesn’t make them suddenly relevant and doesn’t form a compelling argument. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/150 "2023-02-13T16:56:50Z")
By which time they are probably aware someone is there to shoot them, and they’re going to attempt to bug out. If I have a KR assigned to me from someone else, that person is a legal target once activated (in current form). Let me shoot/scram first and do the KR check automatically. Wasting my time activating (and potentially paying for) a kill right I’m using valuable time (and isk) that will make the difference between 1 target or 2, or 3 or 4. So in response to this: - > [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > … man, this literally takes 4 seconds… Great, I just spent 100 mil on 4 targets that flew away and are now aware I’m looking for them. That’s dumb. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/151 "2023-02-13T16:58:36Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > I’m not sure why that is a particularly interesting question. …because a number of these tags are bought by gankers to raise their sec status to above -5. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/152 "2023-02-13T17:05:23Z")
This does not happen. You get plenty of time to kill players that you activate kill rights against, both against large and small ships: > **[Tornado | PSIHO Dac | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/104442542/)** > > PSIHO Dac (Royal Amarr Institute) lost their Tornado in Jita (The Forge) Total Value: 118,837,061.64 ISK > **[Thrasher | Kamikadze jita | Killmail](https://zkillboard.com/kill/103774846/)** > > Kamikadze jita (State War Academy) lost their Thrasher in Jita (The Forge) Total Value: 20,808,026.99 ISK I linked these two as proof of concept. If you can’t do it, the issue is not the game, but that you don’t do it enough to perform it. Apart from that, you have been steering the away from the original topic: > [@Arivexel](#): > > I’m primarily referring to “gank fleets” in high-sec. Gank fleets do not use positive security status toons. We slowly had to pull your argument out of your nose and you constantly kept changing the content of what you said. I am strongly convinced that you just wrote something to vent your anger and now desperately try to spin a narritive that does not make you look like a complete fool. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/153 "2023-02-13T17:06:26Z")
Now post 4 tornados that you killed at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/154 "2023-02-13T17:06:54Z")
You don’t need to kill them at the same time, you kill them one after another, duh. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/155 "2023-02-13T17:07:59Z")
You have to be a special kind of dully to activate four killrights and then shoot at them. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/156 "2023-02-13T17:08:25Z")
…and? You can still shoot them when they’re above -5. That’s what they’re doing – shooting people above -5 security status – and nothing is stopping you from doing the same. Also, there are people who aren’t gankers, but they are Outlaws below -5. You can shoot them too, despite them not being gankers. Shall we give them free tags? To repeat myself: …and? Where does your logic about killrights bridge the gap? ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/157 "2023-02-13T17:09:14Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > …and? You can still shoot them when they’re above -5. That’s what they’re doing, and nothing is stopping you from doing the same. You Sir, are a smart man and this is something that enrages them a lot. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/158 "2023-02-13T17:10:04Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You get plenty of time to kill players that you activate kill rights against You get 15 minutes of them as suspect. What you conveniently straw-manned me on (by pretending I meant suspect duration) there though; is that when there’s multiple targets, you don’t get a lot of time before target 2, 3, and 4 warp out. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/159 "2023-02-13T17:10:47Z")
No, I don’t talk about the 15 minutes. You activate and immediately pop them. It takes less than a second. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/160 "2023-02-13T17:11:45Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You have to be a special kind of dully to activate four killrights and then shoot at them. I know, this is a massive problem, because whilst I’m doing that, they will be alerted and some of them will have time to get away. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/161 "2023-02-13T17:12:43Z")
Straw man again, I don’t mean 1 target, I mean several. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/162 "2023-02-13T17:13:54Z")
But where is the issue? Do you want the game to serve you free kills without you having to do anything at all? I thought you didn’t want special treatment. Right now you are asking for an entire fleet to become engageable, immobile and unable to fight back. Go kill rats if you want that. It’s called PVP. You can’t just make the other player unable to do anything. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990.md?page=9)