# Create an \*ACTUAL\* Downside to Player Piracy **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [January 24, 2023, 8:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990 "2023-01-24T08:15:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/163 "2023-02-13T17:15:49Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > Right now you are asking for an entire fleet to become engageable Just this, when I have KRs for the fleet. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. Straw-man AGAIN, I didn’t ask for them to become immobile, it’s exactly BECAUSE they ARE mobile that I want the process to be faster. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/164 "2023-02-13T17:17:00Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You Sir, are a smart man and this is something that enrages them a lot. I assure you I feel quite stupid. I am struggling to understand what the argument is – I know how expensive it is to tag _my lone self_ up – I simply can’t imagine the prohibitive cost of an entire catalyst gank fleet tagging up. Seems like ganker players that do that deserve to go broke for being dumb with their ISK. All of which is somehow to make a point about killmails being difficult to use to kill a gank fleet, and I don’t get that bridge from tags to killmails either. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/165 "2023-02-13T17:18:08Z")
That’s a dumb thing to ask for as it is already doable in a few seconds, as I already said. Furthermore, I already explained that activating multiple KRs not a good idea because you want to put each KR to good use. You are again asking for something that is utterly USELESS in PVP. You’d know it, if you attempted it once. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/166 "2023-02-13T17:21:23Z")
You can’t understand an argument that holds no truth, so don’t worry about it. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/167 "2023-02-13T17:21:38Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > it is already doable in a few seconds Valuable seconds that make the difference between 1 dead guy and several. > [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > activating multiple KRs not a good idea because you want to put each KR to good use Right, you are SO close to getting it! Now stay with me here. What IF, it WAS a good idea because the process was faster, THEREFORE you could put multiple KR activation to good use! If you pretend not to understand again I think I’m done here. > [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You are again asking for something that is utterly USELESS in PVP. You’d know it, if you attempted it once. Sources: nil Evidence: none Opinion: discarded ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/168 "2023-02-13T17:24:02Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > Right, you are SO close to getting it! Now stay with me here. What IF, it WAS a good idea because the process was faster, THEREFORE you could put multiple KR activation to good use! > > If you pretend not to understand again I think I’m done here. Great now you activated 4 kill rights but only have one or two scrams. Good job, you just wasted the remaining kill rights. You are a genious. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/169 "2023-02-13T17:30:06Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > You can’t understand an argument that holds no truth, so don’t worry about it. Like I want to understand “how many tags are bought in Jita daily” and figure out what mental bridge to Teribithia is taking us back to “killrights are important”: - Are we talking about the cheaper tags? Those only go from -10 to -5. That raises the question: why do _these tags_ matter? One more gank and the fleet that’s barely above -5 is going to go back below -5 and be Outlaw again. killrights once again don’t matter. Unless the logic is somehow “masses of catalyst fleets tag up after each gank to just barely go above -5 again”. Does that ever happen? Sounds like a nightmare and much simpler _and cheaper_ to just not tag up with these tags in the first place. So it can’t be these tags. - Are we talking about the more expensive tags? Those go from -5 to 0. Those _would be_ relevant to the whole “now I need killrights to avoid CONCORD”, if it weren’t for the fact that these tags are stupidly expensive. Do fleets of catalyst gank alts really spend the \>quarter-billion of ISK _each_ just to tag everyone up from -4.9 back up to 0? That doesn’t sound right either. @0ptimus_Swine any elaboration on your original thoughts here? Your silence is leaving a noticeable gap. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/170 "2023-02-13T17:33:16Z")
Are tags used by gankers to bring their sec status above -5? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/171 "2023-02-13T17:33:42Z")
That’s what I am asking you, since you brought it up and left all of us wondering how to fill the gaps. (note: I’m not a ganker, just a lowsec pirate) ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/172 "2023-02-13T17:34:32Z")
Do you use tags to bring up your sec status? ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/173 "2023-02-13T17:35:43Z")
I have done so on several occasions, hence why my points above have some familiarity with the tag market and prices of bribes. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/174 "2023-02-13T17:36:19Z")
Optimus, can you please elaborate why activating multiple kill rights is useful, if you can’t kill more than two gankers anyway? ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/175 "2023-02-13T17:39:21Z")
Well, I present two scenarios, Every single sec tag is sold to people like yourself. How often do you buy them, you said: several times, you didn’t say: by the thousand every single day. Do you think this scenario accounts for the volume of sec tags sold on a daily basis? Or they are sold to other people as well, such as gankers, to bring up their sec status. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/176 "2023-02-13T17:43:07Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > Do you think this scenario accounts for the volume of sec tags sold on a daily basis? Who cares? There’s people that speculate on any item in Eve, the market-makers, and contribute significantly to buy/order volume. This is a skeptical criticism of any “trade volume” based argument, a barrier I do not think you have the data to argue one way or the other upon. So it’s just a belief. > [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > Or they are sold to other people as well, such as gankers, to bring up their sec status. That seems like a roundabout question. Let’s ask the real question you intend: How many catalyst fleets have you seen be Outlaw status, and then later see be above -5? Those will be the answer to your question, skipping all assumptions in between. I’ve seen zero. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/177 "2023-02-13T17:43:27Z")
> [@Phat\_Phil](#): > > if you can’t kill more than two gankers anyway? I didn’t say that. Maybe, I’m at the point that the limiting factor for me is activating kill rights fast enough. So your STRAW MAN that it’s only possible to kill one or two is ONLY TRUE because of the current kill right activation process. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/178 "2023-02-13T17:45:17Z")
> [@Io\_Koval](#): > > This is a skeptical criticism of any “trade volume” based argument Actually a good point. I don’t think I’m wrong in suggesting nado teams buy them so they can sit at gates though. Or do you disagree? > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > How many catalyst fleets Not once did I ever suggest cat fleets buy sec tags. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/179 "2023-02-13T17:45:57Z")
Tell me how you are going to solo more than two tornados on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![0ptimus\_Swine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/0ptimus_swine/32/385816_2.png) [@0ptimus\_Swine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/0ptimus_Swine)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/180 "2023-02-13T17:48:35Z")
By being able to activate killrights faster, haven’t you been keeping up lol. If I have 2 scrams, if i catch the first guy with his pants down and scram the other two, I can probably have the first guy dead before he is able to warp, then I have 2 other targets to hit. If I’m lucky or the 4th guy is slow, I might even get the second scram on him in time after blasting the second guy. ---
**Author:** ![Phat\_Phil](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/phat_phil/32/452625_2.png) [@Phat\_Phil](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Phat_Phil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/181 "2023-02-13T17:50:18Z")
So how are you going to dunk them so quickly though? With a magic ship? Show me a fit that can do that. ---
**Author:** ![Io\_Koval](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/io_koval/32/282426_2.png) [@Io\_Koval](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Io_Koval)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990/182 "2023-02-13T17:50:45Z")
> [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > Not once did I ever suggest cat fleets buy sec tags. OK, fair, though much of the initial discussion was about “gank fleets” (number unspecified) which is up for interpretation. > [@0ptimus\_Swine](#): > > I don’t think I’m wrong in suggesting nado teams buy them so they can sit at gates though. Or do you disagree? Sure, they could. They could be rotating alts for all I know with the 1M free SP bonus instead. Which raises the question: why does this one specific tactic by gankers require _your rethinking_ of the _entire_ killright system? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/create-an-actual-downside-to-player-piracy/392990.md?page=10)