# CSM 13 - High Sec Issues/Suggestions/Ideas **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Tags:** high-sec, csm\ **Created:** [June 21, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409 "2018-06-21T17:40:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/43 "2018-07-02T15:01:38Z")
> [@QuakeGod](#): > > How did you manage to make CSM without having even a basic grasp of game mechanics? The same way you think that’s a question rather than an insult. People thought to vote for him. Incidentally since you are always at risk of someone showing up and killing you in null space and you can always get ganked when you exit from the Abysmal sites there really isn’t much difference in risk. Merely what you bring to the table to back you up. A supercap, a titan, 3 VNI’s, whatever you feel you need to exit the site safely. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/44 "2018-07-02T15:23:46Z")
> [@QuakeGod](#): > > How did you manage to make CSM without having even a basic grasp of game mechanics? /eyeroll What basic mechanic am I failing to grasp this time? That you get a suspect timer if you run a level 4 or 5? A suspect timer does not mean you’re instantly CONCORDed in high sec. It means you can be attacked by other players with no response. Which means it’s exactly the same as in null sec all the time. In null, you have to scan down the filament exit and wait for the guy to come out. The risk of running these in high sec is thus exactly the same as the risk of running them in null sec. Not sure why it suddenly becomes a nullsec only thing because you can be attacked - I’d still run these in high sec, knowing the likelihood of somebody specifically running around in a scanning ship looking for these fights is lower. The idea that the supercap umbrella is going to protect guys running these missions in null sec is absurd. First, nobody’s running these sites with a ship with a cyno on it, so they can’t call the super caps in anyway. Second, the engagement profile of these fights isn’t going to be long enough to scramble a response. Unless you think somebody is going to have a titan sitting on their abyssal site on the off chance somebody scans them down, that whole idea is beyond unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/45 "2018-07-02T15:47:45Z")
There is not an issue with the game mechanics and I’m sure lots of people are running then from Highsec because of the points you mentioned. I also mentioned in several threads where people cried about this that there are possibilities to avoid the gankers for example by warping in an Orca and dock your ship and then instantly warp your pod out. The real issue is as always that those people are too lazy to invest ANY effort to secure their stuff and just want it handed for free by CCP. Ironically they do this by pointing to nullsec and say it is saver, completely ignoring that this is neither true and for free as those alliances invest quite some time and effort to secure their space. So just ignore those guys and let’s focus on the constructive ideas here. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/46 "2018-07-02T15:51:06Z")
> [@Ima\_Wreckyou](#): > > So just ignore those guys and let’s focus on the constructive ideas here. Good idea. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/47 "2018-07-02T15:54:11Z")
In another thread we’ve been bouncing the idea around of war probes/structures/deployables. > [@New Wardec mechanics - can't wait!](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/new-wardec-mechanics-cant-wait/84378): > > Trying to make any assumptions here and going based on what I have been reading in local chats, if the new wardec system will allow the corporation getting a wardec to simply surrender before the war even starts, will the corp making the wardec be able to set a certain fee or will it be a fixed rate? And is it really reasonable for the surrender timer to be 30 days? Couldn’t it be based on how much is paid? Say two weeks, 4 weeks or 8 weeks? On another note, if multiple corps can wardec the sa… Warning: excessively long read. (793 at time of linking) ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/48 "2018-07-02T16:13:30Z")
> [@MinerArt](#): > > Warning: excessively long read. (793 at time of linking) Yeah, I’ve been keeping on eye on that one. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/49 "2018-07-02T16:20:56Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Yeah, I’ve been keeping on eye on that one. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-HE6PgrSkI&t=151) Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/50 "2018-07-02T20:04:59Z")
There is a difference. In nullsec, palyers organize to provide safe spaces through intle networks, sovereing space and fleet backup. The enemy usually is many jumps away, will be seen coming, and even if he comes often will be hunting larger prey. But the highsec player is alone in a world of neutrals where one can’t tell who’s the enemy until he attacks. Thus the actual risk, is perceived as higher in highsec than in nullsec. Also, in the eyes of the highsec PvEr, a player with a suspect flag is agreeing to PvP, and people who PvE do not _want_ to PvP. Thus they ignore content that involves agreeing to PvP (with the irony that in nullsec they would be safer and get higher rewards, but they don’t want to go to nullsec). ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Engraver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dark_engraver/32/45178_2.png) [@Dark\_Engraver](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dark_Engraver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/51 "2018-07-02T20:11:05Z")
Your reply about scrambling response in null is funny I had a fax with cyno siting ready for my exit filament and refit in its hangar for my gila. Can you get a fax rep power in standby in highsec along with other caps ready to jump in on few minute notice? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/52 "2018-07-02T20:13:06Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > There is a difference. In nullsec, palyers organize to provide safe spaces through intle networks, sovereing space and fleet backup. The enemy usually is many jumps away, will be seen coming, and even if he comes often will be hunting larger prey. True, but intel networks are fallible, awoxes are common and make it clear that you can’t always trust the blues around you any more than a high-seccer can trust neuts he doesn’t know, and even if they’re hunting larger pray, they have more tools to hunt with than those who spend their time in high sec. No warp bubbles, no supercaps, etc. > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > But the highsec player is alone in a world of neutrals where one can’t tell who’s the enemy until he attacks. Thus the actual risk, is perceived as higher in highsec than in nullsec. This is true on gates and in belts, but in this specific instance we’re talking about here - running abyssal sites - if you’re doing it on a deep safe (which only makes sense, regardless of where you’re doing them), if you see anything remotely close to you on dscan you can automatically assume it’s hostile. Thus, the situation is the same. > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > Also, in the eyes of the highsec PvEr, a player with a suspect flag is agreeing to PvP, and people who PvE do not _want_ to PvP. I think that’s a difficult generalization to make, given the game’s reputation for non-consensual PvP. There’s always a risk that PvE activity will get interrupted by another player, whether someone wants it or not. The issue is whether the reward is worth the risk for that PvEer, and given how lucrative the higher tier abyssal loot is and how generally easy it is to remain safe while doing these, I just find it difficult to accept that the suspect timer thing alone is a complete bar to running these. Anybody worried about the timer can simply warp and dock in a station or warp to a friendly citadel and wait out the timer before doing something else. Or they can easily just jump into another filament and go. There’s really no fundamental difference in risk to running the higher level sites in highsec than in nullsec. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/53 "2018-07-02T20:16:12Z")
> [@Dark\_Engraver](#): > > Your reply about scrambling response in null is funny I had a fax with cyno siting ready for my exit filament and refit in its hangar for my gila. Let me know where you’re running these filaments. 🙂 > [@Dark\_Engraver](#): > > Can you get a fax rep power in standby in highsec along with other caps ready to jump in on few minute notice? Obviously not. And you can’t get them easily in nullsec either, unless you’re bringing your own ships multiboxing. Even then, I think most folks would think it would be kind of dumb to cyno in a titan to protect a Gila from a hunter. Do that more than once and you’re inviting a hot drop. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/54 "2018-07-02T20:17:00Z")
Yep. @brianschoeneman is my handle. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/55 "2018-07-02T20:26:46Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > > > There is a difference. In nullsec, palyers organize to provide safe spaces through intle networks, sovereing space and fleet backup. The enemy usually is many jumps away, will be seen coming, and even if he comes often will be hunting larger prey. > > True, but intel networks are fallible, awoxes are common and make it clear that you can’t always trust the blues around you any more than a high-seccer can trust neuts he doesn’t know, and even if they’re hunting larger pray, they have more tools to hunt with than those who spend their time in high sec. No warp bubbles, no supercaps, etc. > > > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > > > But the highsec player is alone in a world of neutrals where one can’t tell who’s the enemy until he attacks. Thus the actual risk, is perceived as higher in highsec than in nullsec. > > This is true on gates and in belts, but in this specific instance we’re talking about here - running abyssal sites - if you’re doing it on a deep safe (which only makes sense, regardless of where you’re doing them), if you see anything remotely close to you on dscan you can automatically assume it’s hostile. Thus, the situation is the same. > > > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > > > Also, in the eyes of the highsec PvEr, a player with a suspect flag is agreeing to PvP, and people who PvE do not _want_ to PvP. > > I think that’s a difficult generalization to make, given the game’s reputation for non-consensual PvP. There’s always a risk that PvE activity will get interrupted by another player, whether someone wants it or not. The issue is whether the reward is worth the risk for that PvEer, and given how lucrative the higher tier abyssal loot is and how generally easy it is to remain safe while doing these, I just find it difficult to accept that the suspect timer thing alone is a complete bar to running these. Anybody worried about the timer can simply warp and dock in a station or warp to a friendly citadel and wait out the timer before doing something else. Or they can easily just jump into another filament and go. > > There’s really no fundamental difference in risk to running the higher level sites in highsec than in nullsec. I’ve tried to help you understand highsec, but you claim that there is nothing to understand… so what’s the point to even keep talking? 🤷‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/56 "2018-07-02T20:30:10Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > I’ve tried to help you understand highsec, but you claim that there is nothing to understand… so what’s the point to even keep talking? 🤷‍♀️ I’m not claiming there’s nothing to understand. I’m trying to explain my perspective to someone who obviously doesn’t share it. You’re trying to do the same thing. That’s what a conversation is, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/57 "2018-07-02T20:30:25Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > I’ve tried to help you understand highsec, but you claim that there is nothing to understand… so what’s the point to even keep talking? 🤷‍♀️ It would probably help when you say you’re talking about high sec to stop discussing null aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/58 "2018-07-02T20:38:21Z")
Excuse me? This is my original message, MINUS the null thing: > [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > What highsec is: an emergent mess of complex mechanics and player interactions, where all players start. > > What CCP tries to shape highsec into: a starter area that prepares players for the “real game”, some of which happens in highsec (economy) and some not (multiplayer PvP) > > What highsec should be IMO: a viable endgame venue for players not interested on economy, multiplaying or PvP. > > Most online palyers are solo PvErs and CCP’s efforts to make everything better for multiplayer PvPrs are bleeding dry the population and income that highsec used to provide. > > There is a simple truth CCP has never understood (or their development culture ignores it): **individual risk/reward is set in stone.** Each player will search for and stick to his risk/reward ratio, and will stick to it forever. > > All attempts by CCP to lure players into higher risk/reward have the collateral of rewarding players who naturally agree to higher risk/reward and downplay the perceived value of players who prefer lower risk/reward, since they get less or nothing. > > Since highsec doesn’t gets viable endgame, and is just a showroom for “the real thing” and a starter area and a playgorud for economy players, it is losing CCP precious players for no good reason at all. It was this way in 2008 when I started, was this way in 2011 with Incarna, was this way in 2013 when CCP comitted to Rubicon and still is this way now. > > Highsec is losing players for no good reason at all, just because CCP strives to make sure that highsec players are fuill aware that they should be elsewhere since they don’t meet the standards of CCP’s desired target. > > It would be much better if highsec had it’s own high grade, EXCLUSIVE content to reward players who prefer that risk/ reward, rather than constantly reminding them that they’re missing the “real thing”. NPC standings and security status could provide ways to gate content as “highsec exclusive”. And this is what the nullsec CSM Brisc Rubal has picked to discuss: > Case in point: abysmal sites, F1-F3 loot is poor because of extensive use in highsec whereas players who run F4-F5 in null get full, better loot. Thus the feature effectively punishes players for being “just F1-F3”. Surely is my fault, yeah. 💁‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/59 "2018-07-02T20:42:02Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > Surely is my fault, yeah. 💁‍♀️ I didn’t discuss the other parts because I didn’t find anything in there that I disagree with and I thought you said it well. I decided to address the part I disagreed with. Why are you assuming that I ignored the rest of what you wrote because I didn’t respond to it? I obviously read it. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/60 "2018-07-02T21:02:32Z")
You said there is no difference, but for the people who leaves EVE instead of going to null certainly _there is._ Denying the issue doesn’t helps to solve it. It’s nto about how to get people to agree with you, but about how to make them stay in game when their opinions are different than yours. Saying that there is no dfiference is useless. You don’t learn why people leave the game and you can’t understand them whenever other topics arise. To the people you’re asking suggestions here, there is a difference. One that seriously diminishes the value of EVE in their eyes, for no good reason, and is causing CCP to lose customers and revenue. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/61 "2018-07-02T21:09:32Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > You said there is no difference, but for the people who leaves EVE instead of going to null certainly _there is._ There is fundamentally no difference between nul space Abyssal site running and high beyond the size of a ship you can find at the exit. Which is what he said. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There’s really no fundamental difference in risk to running the higher level sites in highsec than in nullsec. It’s also something you quoted. Edit: No Brisc, that’s not moving the goalposts. It’s strawman. Changed the target. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/62 "2018-07-02T22:59:59Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > You said there is no difference, but for the people who leaves EVE instead of going to null certainly _there is._ Please don’t put words in my mouth, and please don’t move the goalposts of the discussion. MinerArt pointed out how you did that. I’m trying my best to find out the concerns of highsec so that I can represent them to CCP. Work with me on that. Please. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409.md?page=4)