# CSM 14 Second Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, csm\ **Created:** [April 17, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538 "2020-04-17T17:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/276 "2020-04-23T17:45:24Z")
> [@Wanda\_Fayne](#): > > As I presented above, the second largest alliance in the game is virtually untouchable in HS. They _will be_ the largest soon… and they will use their leverage in the CSM process. Isn’t that exactly what people want? A high sec representative? ---
**Author:** ![Wanda\_Fayne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanda_fayne/32/377654_2.png) [@Wanda\_Fayne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanda_Fayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/277 "2020-04-23T17:49:55Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Isn’t that exactly what people want? A high sec representative? Depends I suppose. I for one am not as concerned with where someone is from, as I am about what they want to affect. I supported you, btw. And Olmeca. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/278 "2020-04-23T17:54:47Z")
> [@Wanda\_Fayne](#): > > Depends I suppose. I for one am not as concerned with where someone is from, as I am about what they want to affect. > > I supported you, btw. > And Olmeca. I appreciate the support and I hope I can count on it again. That being said, in the other CSM thread right now are a ton of people who want a high sec representative, and they’re lamenting there not being one. If one of these big high sec groups that exist now because of the war dec changes gets somebody elected, that’s great. ---
**Author:** ![Wanda\_Fayne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wanda_fayne/32/377654_2.png) [@Wanda\_Fayne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wanda_Fayne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/279 "2020-04-23T17:57:14Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I appreciate the support and I hope I can count on it again. > > That being said, in the other CSM thread right now are a ton of people who want a high sec representative, and they’re lamenting there not being one. If one of these big high sec groups that exist now because of the war dec changes gets somebody elected, that’s great. Will have to see what platform they run with. As I am fond of saying to people, be careful what you wish for! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/280 "2020-04-23T18:56:39Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > They started bringing it up on CSM 10 in…2015. So they did. How about that… > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > This is one situation where they had no dog in the fight. I’m not so sure. Null groups are subject to decs most of the time. They have a vested interest in turning hi-sec into a toddler pool for feeder corps and haulage. But anyways, if the CSM have been pointing CCP towards wardecs this whole time and they didn’t bounce ideas off the CSM before implementing said sledgehammer, then perhaps my frustration regarding decs is misdirected when it comes to the CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/281 "2020-04-23T20:28:58Z")
So apart from @CCP_Aurora who just recently introduced herself there the only other CCP employee there was Falcon. The only time he interacted with us he asked a single question and no other response or interaction was had. He asked: **“Can anyone here give me a list of the top war dec’ing alliances?”** This is the reason why I’m skeptical about their data. He had to come into a player run discord and ask a question that they can easily pull data for themselves? ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/7/27a902d243a8de90636df65bcdb50152bad4dbb4.jpeg) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/e/a/ea2aa5d3466149f6fc313b9982c8f9ced372bdd1.jpeg) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/f/2f6706e713989f2401198c36adfb53a5a0965a32.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/282 "2020-04-23T20:54:43Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Except no one in that story had to be wardecced. No one had to lose that Orca and the war didn’t have to be extended. The carebears could have done their mining without any danger (of wardecs). We were a gaming group, when it was decided to try EVE we created a corporation to operate under, just like all the other games we wanted to play as a group. Yes, we could have dropped corporation when the war started, but that meant all the shared assets we were putting together were more difficult to use and the standings we were trying to grind would not benefit the corporation. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > All those issues could have been addressed with by making information around wardecs more available. The problem was not a lack of information. We had an identity we brought with us that promoted working together and helping people learn and we were punished to extinction for it right out of the gate. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > And with regards to the changes themselves, nothing like was implemented was required to prevent such a story from happening. The changes meant we could be in a corporation with shared hangars and agent standings without being bullied by enemies beyond our ability to defend against. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > But, as for most things outside of null sec, CCP didn’t engage with the players involved and opted with a half arsed band aid (more like a sledgehammer). Most of the players that quit were pretty much “I’m done with this game, cancelling my sub, etc, etc.” This is the survivor syndrome in action, as those who left were no longer interested in giving CCP feedback. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/283 "2020-04-23T21:35:10Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > but that meant all the shared assets we were putting together were more difficult to use and the standings we were trying to grind would not benefit the corporation. That seems like normal risk/reward to me. How did gobbins put it? Having a stake in the game? > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > The problem was not a lack of information. We had an identity we brought with us that promoted working together and helping people learn and we were punished to extinction for it right out of the gate. As above, this was possible to do without linking wardec eligibility to structures. And they wouldn’t have felt ‘bullied’ if they got ganked? or scammed? or you guys wouldn’t have gotten to a point where you wanted a structure and gotten decced anyways? Honestly you folks would have come up against the sandbox at _ **some** _ point, and if a wardec was punishing, then so would the rest be. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Most of the players that quit were pretty much “I’m done with this game, cancelling my sub, etc, etc.” This is the survivor syndrome in action, as those who left were no longer interested in giving CCP feedback. Has nothing to do with what you quoted. But ‘most of the players that quit’ do so without encountering any kind of wardec or pvp. Just letting you know. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/284 "2020-04-23T22:07:48Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > But ‘most of the players that quit’ do so without encountering any kind of wardec or pvp. Just letting you know. This is a statement I’ve been saying. Can you imagine the following: - You are a new player and you join your first corp. You are interested in mining, production, and trade… maybe even running missions and salvaging to hit all the common bases. - You find yourself staring at a screen of asteroids for hours - Still staring at a screen of asteroids for hours - You tell yourself it’s not so bad because you have some corp mates around you, but they keep talking about this evil “CODE”. - Yes! You made 15m isk! - Aw man, you get ganked by these “CODE” bullies. How unfair! - Still mining… Yes! Another 15m!!! - What’s this? A wardec? Wonder what that is… - Why is my CEO telling me that I need to stop playing the game for a week? He keeps talking about these wardec guys but I haven’t seen any. - Wow how come no one is online? I don’t want to play alone, this sucks. My example above lays out something that I think has been pretty common. You have a really shitty and boring style of gameplay that involves minimal movement and thinking outside of a spreadsheet. There’s not much else to do except talk to people, if they’re even interested in talking. You are presented with obstacles early on and your leadership is presenting you with options that push you away from the game instead of adapting or learning. You are probably quite bored of the mundane and sub-par content thus far. Yeah wardecs probably were the cherry on the top for many but this is exactly my point! These players are hardly likely to stick around regardless if they got wardec’d or not. CSM, why not demand retention data for new players that join a Highsec corp and mine or run missions? Why not demand retention data for new players that find themselves ganked over and over in their Venture? Why not actually investigate what kind of boring gameplay exists in Highsec that serves as first contact for all these new players? **Oh, here’s a bonus one! Can anyone elaborate on how Suicide Ganking and Wardecs are different? Yes I know they are mechanically different, but can someone explain how the outcome is different?** ---
**Author:** ![Vora\_Sis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vora_sis/32/502990_2.png) [@Vora\_Sis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vora_Sis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/285 "2020-04-23T22:56:58Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > **Oh, here’s a bonus one! Can anyone elaborate on how Suicide Ganking and Wardecs are different? Yes I know they are mechanically different, but can someone explain how the outcome is different?** Sure. One can be largely avoided by flying smart and the other can only be avoided by not undocking. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/286 "2020-04-23T23:32:12Z")
In the latest CSM minutes they touched upon the NPE with regards to finding a ‘good corp’. But they are just barely scratching the surface. > [@Vora\_Sis](#): > > Sure. One can be largely avoided by flying smart and the other can only be avoided by not undocking. They can both be avoided by not undocking, and they can both be avoided by paying attention. During a wardec you even get 24 hours notice and can see them in local… ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/287 "2020-04-23T23:34:44Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > During a wardec you even get 24 hours notice and can see them in local… Well plus, wardecs have always been a 100% opt in system. Merits of NPC corps aside, it’s never been the case that wars could only be avoided by not undocking. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/288 "2020-04-23T23:35:54Z")
True that. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 11:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/289 "2020-04-23T23:47:22Z")
> [@Vora\_Sis](#): > > Sure. One can be largely avoided by flying smart and the other can only be avoided by not undocking. Wrong. Both can be avoided by employing the same strategies. Im seriously waiting on a good response to the above. Just wondering why wars are the only chronic problem in this NPE mess. I’m not trying to just make ganking collateral damage here, because I gank as well and enjoy it. Just pointing out that there are plenty of factors in retention issues that close-minded individuals choose to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Vora\_Sis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vora_sis/32/502990_2.png) [@Vora\_Sis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vora_Sis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/290 "2020-04-24T00:19:19Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Wrong. Both can be avoided by employing the same strategies. I disagree. The most common strategy to avoiding gankers is to not carry stupid amounts of cargo or fly a blinged out ship. There is always a chance someone will gank you anyway just for the lulz or maybe they just don’t like the cut of your jib. It happens and you move on. Under a wardec you are asking new players to act like veteran players or get blown up for no other reason than someone decided they wanted to bully them (at least under the old system). Don’t know the cloak and MWD trick? Have a missile newbro. Don’t know about undock bookmarks? Good luck getting off the dock. Don’t have a coverts ops alt to scout your next jump? Outta luck. You could argue that forcing new players to learn survival tactics in a trial by fire is a good thing and I don’t completely disagree with that. But, the developers obviously found a correlation between wardecs as a form of bullying and player retention. The new mechanics make wardecs truly opt-in (as opposed to opt-out by dropping to an NPC corp, playing an alt or just not logging in). And, having the mechanics tied to owning structures gives small corporations a real incentive to opt-in when they are ready for it. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 12:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/291 "2020-04-24T00:39:20Z")
> [@Vora\_Sis](#): > > I disagree. The most common strategy to avoiding gankers is to not carry stupid amounts of cargo or fly a blinged out ship. There is always a chance someone will gank you anyway just for the lulz or maybe they just don’t like the cut of your jib. It happens and you move on. I’d argue that more miners and shuttles get killed, resulting in a loss for the gankers. Plenty of ganking for profit happens, but it’s not going to be the majority. Go browse through Venture and Retriever losses in Highsec on Zkill… > [@Vora\_Sis](#): > > Under a wardec you are asking new players to act like veteran players or get blown up for no other reason than someone decided they wanted to bully them (at least under the old system). Don’t know the cloak and MWD trick? Have a missile newbro. Don’t know about undock bookmarks? Good luck getting off the dock. Don’t have a coverts ops alt to scout your next jump? Outta luck. I agree with you except in the overblown case that was presented at Eve Vegas by CCP Burger, a list of the Top 5 Wardec groups was used as an example. Those Top 5 groups were not going around hunting new players around Highsec. They were not specifically dec’ing newbro corps and relentlessly killing them. Those Top 5 groups were mass war dec’ing the largest alliances in the game in order to hunt around trade hubs. That brings up another good point… is poor leadership not to blame at all? You vacuum up all these new players to come play with your bloc in Nullsec and leave them to figure out how to not act during a Wardec on their own? > [@Vora\_Sis](#): > > But, the developers obviously found a correlation between wardecs as a form of bullying and player retention. The new mechanics make wardecs truly opt-in (as opposed to opt-out by dropping to an NPC corp, playing an alt or just not logging in). And, having the mechanics tied to owning structures gives small corporations a real incentive to opt-in when they are ready for it. I don’t disagree entirely with an opt-in system. My complaint is that it has flaws that can be fleshed out better. My complaint is that they weren’t interested in doing more to wars other than “think of the children”. They took 5 blanket Wardec alliances and used them to demonize the entire Wardec system and the “think of the children” examples being painted weren’t even happening. Want to know who picks on new players? The small Wardec group or solo wardec guy with a handful of wars. ---
**Author:** ![Vora\_Sis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vora_sis/32/502990_2.png) [@Vora\_Sis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vora_Sis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/292 "2020-04-24T01:20:02Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Those Top 5 groups were mass war dec’ing the largest alliances in the game in order to hunt around trade hubs. That sounds like a legitimate (and fun) thing to do so it’s unfortunate that there are barriers in place to lessen it. I think I get where some of these comments are coming from now and disagree with them less when put into that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/293 "2020-04-24T01:43:16Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Wrong. Both can be avoided by employing the same strategies If you are mining yes. If you are doing anything that requires changing systems no. When travelling ganking can be avoided by buffer tank, keeping value low enough etc. War Dec gate camps can not be avoided the same way and without an alt you can’t scout ahead. And alts should not be the expected gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/294 "2020-04-24T02:50:16Z")
just giving a shoutout to possibly the best post on this topic to date CSM shouldn’t be “along party lines” it should be about the betterment of the entire game overall. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/295 "2020-04-24T02:51:51Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > If you are mining yes. > If you are doing anything that requires changing systems no. > When travelling ganking can be avoided by buffer tank, keeping value low enough etc. > War Dec gate camps can not be avoided the same way and without an alt you can’t scout ahead. > And alts should not be the expected gameplay. Ok. How is this scenario different than a new player who instantly joins a group like PH or Karmafleet and moves to Nullsec and meets his maker to the cloaked sabre or the cyno? Is a new player in Highsec different than a new player in Nullsec? The Top 5 groups listed in the presentation are hardly seen outside of trade hubs and pipes. With a war you get a 24-hour timer time allow both sides to prepare. Once the war goes live a new player can conduct activities that put him in vulnerable situations on any of the 2 remaining character slots. - Need to haul something that puts you near a trade hub? Use your corp mates that may have an alt. Use public contracts or any of the hauling groups that provide the service. - Need to get to a mission hub to run security missions? Setup a jump clone and safely bypass the risk of travel. They can even leave their favorite missioning ship there for ease! - Absolutely need to move around? You’re in a player corporation! You ought to have corpmates that can assist you in that. #1 it’s an MMO, and often times we have to rely on others. #2 if your corp lacks the desire to help you, then I’d say they really aren’t worth playing with if they can’t be bothered to help you out as a new player. Ganking avoidance is much the same. We see lots of for profit ganking but what you also see is even more “new players” in Ventures, Retrievers, and other low skilled ships getting ganked. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=15)