# CSM 14 Second Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, csm\ **Created:** [April 17, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538 "2020-04-17T17:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sho\_Riagl\_Khardula](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sho_riagl_khardula/32/292422_2.png) [@Sho\_Riagl\_Khardula](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sho_Riagl_Khardula)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/125 "2020-04-20T12:20:19Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > > > Unfortunately most of them couldn’t care less what most players in EVE think though. The CSM is there to serve null alliances, regardless what other players of the game actually want. The CSM should have been shut down long ago because all it does is further consolidate power in null as it shifts game mechanics the way they want. > > This is mostly BS. Yes, there are some CSM members who are self serving… > > [snipped for brevity] Candour @Brisc_Rubal , an increasingly rare quality these days. Well played! If there is such a Glioblastoma within the CSM, then send in the surgeons to remove both it and all of it’s tendrils - Surgical Strike 2.0 [1]. Or, to put it another way: If CCP want the CSM to truly inspire confidence, they should firmly remind any any all such self-serving members of their broader obligations and request - where such individuals are demonstrably unable to refrain from endulging in any such bias - that they stand down at the next CSM cycle. If unable to do either, they should be delesected by CCP and barred from any re-election and suitable measures instituted to ensure that, as best as is possible, any and all such individuals are unable to take the role of puppet-master-general after future election cycles [2]. [1] A rather poor attempt to put my argument is some manner of current context. [2] Reform, top-down. (Quite how I had the nerve and audacity to write that I’ll never know. Shame on me! 🤬 😭 🤣) ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/126 "2020-04-20T13:05:52Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Au contraire, this is maybe the Silver bullet. The moment Imperium breaks up in a full scale civil war, EvE nullsec has a bright future. > > One important measure is the removal of third party EvE intel on people. Make APIs lie, and sharing with others a bannable offense, you get the point. Mass anonymous groups which rely on API supervision must be destroyed. Trust shall be the most important currency. There is no way to break up these big groups. They existed before there were in-game mechanics, they’ll exist even if those in-game mechanics are taken away. This is barking up the wrong tree. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/127 "2020-04-20T13:06:55Z")
> [@Galaxy\_Raid](#): > > Again, it’s simply below the level of concern for me. If CCP decide to make changes I don’t like I will just leave. I’m not invested enough to look for someone to ask for change. If it was below the level of concern for you, you wouldn’t be here commenting on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/128 "2020-04-20T13:09:09Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > All of the major null groups encourage them to go on websites controlled by them for ad and merch revenue. They generate actual cash from their members. That is their incentive. And with one sentence, you have completely destroyed any credibility you may have had with me. This is nonsense. Pure, tin-foil hat nonsense. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So sites like imperium news generate zero income? Nonsense. It may not be done through affiliate links these days but there’s ads and merch and they’ve got things like their twitch stream. Through that they take donations and they’ve got sponsors with affiliate codes. INN even pays writers in ISK for articles that generate real income, which is somehow not counted as RMT, likely because the CSM have intervened in any attempts to argue against it. > > I imagine goons are still running their internal donations too, with the old benefactors forum and leaderboards. They used to ping out snapshots of donation per sig and donation per member grouped by sig. Imperium News runs ads and pays for content, but the amount of revenue is tiny - there’s a reason why it’s called the “multi-dollar media empire.” For the most part, the revenue it brings in covers the continued operations of the site, not making anybody money. As for all of the auth and other tools, they are funded by donations and out of Innominate’s pocket, as far as I am aware. Everyone who plays this game has spent far more money on it than they ever could hope to receive by selling a couple of coffee cups and maybe a t-shirt. I have easily spent tens of thousands of dollars on this game over the years and I’m not running any alliances. These types of “follow the money” conspiracy theories are just flat out nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/129 "2020-04-20T13:13:45Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > All of the major null groups encourage them to go on websites controlled by them for ad and merch revenue. They generate actual cash from their members. That is their incentive. Huh? I’ve been in 5 such groups and never saw that. Can you give a specific example? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/130 "2020-04-20T13:14:07Z")
> [@Sho\_Riagl\_Khardula](#): > > If there is such a Glioblastoma within the CSM, then send in the surgeons to remove both it and all of it’s tendrils - Surgical Strike 2.0 [1]. > > Or, to put it another way: If CCP want the CSM to truly inspire confidence, they should firmly remind any any all such self-serving members of their broader obligations and request - where such individuals are demonstrably unable to refrain from endulging in any such bias - that they stand down at the next CSM cycle. If unable to do either, they should be delesected by CCP and barred from any re-election and suitable measures instituted to ensure that, as best as is possible, any and all such individuals are unable to take the role of puppet-master-general after future election cycles [2]. They’re not going to do that. They can tell when somebody’s being self-serving, but there’s nothing stopping a representative for pushing things that benefit his group or his game play. Some, like Olmeca, would argue that player reps can ONLY do that, because they don’t have the ability to be unbiased. I think that’s nonsense, but he’s convinced. The only thing they can’t do is be personally self-serving - they can’t use the information they’re provided to personally benefit themselves. That’s what will get you kicked and banned. But advocating a change that benefits your group more than others? Well, hey. That’s politics. I don’t like it, I went out of my way not to do it, and I think others should do the same thing, but that’s a question of morality, not legality, and there’s nothing requiring them to be better than their base instincts. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/131 "2020-04-20T13:27:50Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There is no way to break up these big groups. They existed before there were in-game mechanics, they’ll exist even if those in-game mechanics are taken away. This is barking up the wrong tree. From my point this is exactly the right tree. I’m perfectly fine with entities not able to see correct info about mails, transactions, alts, accounts and other ingame history/activity of their members. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/132 "2020-04-20T13:30:01Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > From my point this is exactly the right tree. I’m perfectly fine with entities not able to see correct info about mails, transactions, alts, accounts and other ingame history/activity of their members. It’s not really that hard for spies to infiltrate these groups as it is. Not sure why removing functionality that has a benefit for players would help further that along, honestly. It takes ten seconds to create a fake email account, register a new, clean account and go from there. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/133 "2020-04-20T13:38:18Z")
Then why don’t you scrap API requirements, if it’s useless against harm anyway? At some point you have to trust people with rights to scale your organization. If this can be limited to people you personally know, the maximum size of the organization is limited. ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Raid](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_raid/32/217870_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Raid](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Raid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/134 "2020-04-20T13:43:04Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > If it was below the level of concern for you, you wouldn’t be here commenting on this thread. And where have I asked for the game to change to suit my wants / desires? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/135 "2020-04-20T13:53:30Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Then why don’t you scrap API requirements, if it’s useless against harm anyway? At some point you have to trust people with rights to scale your organization. If this can be limited to people you personally know, the maximum size of the organization is limited. Because the API requirements provide other benefits to players. We’ve got auth tools that help me get a better snapshot of my character than in-game tools do, and I like having that functionality. Providing these end points lets third party developers do cool things. Again, even without them, big groups will still be big. And, as I keep explaining, big groups are not inherently bad. They’re not for everybody, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sho\_Riagl\_Khardula](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sho_riagl_khardula/32/292422_2.png) [@Sho\_Riagl\_Khardula](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sho_Riagl_Khardula)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/136 "2020-04-20T13:55:10Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > [snip] > > They’re not going to do that. They can tell when somebody’s being self-serving, but there’s nothing stopping a representative for pushing things that benefit his group or his game play. Some, like Olmeca, would argue that player reps can ONLY do that, because they don’t have the ability to be unbiased. I think that’s nonsense, but he’s convinced. > > The only thing they can’t do is be personally self-serving - they can’t use the information they’re provided to personally benefit themselves. That’s what will get you kicked and banned. > > But advocating a change that benefits your group more than others? Well, hey. That’s politics. I don’t like it, I went out of my way not to do it, and I think others should do the same thing, but that’s a question of morality, not legality, and there’s nothing requiring them to be better than their base instincts. I agree in that any such change is highly improbable - even if desirable. As for Olmeca, if that truly is a proposition held, then the logic is flawed to the point of being absurd. It is, as you say, nonsense. And you’re right, that _is_ politics - and it’s the type of politics that, in real life and in numerous democratic institutions, has caused many a controversy and ultimately resulted in numerous changes for the better. I think, any democratic system needs to be capable of self-reflection and change. Stagnation, either in game or in the wider meta (including the CSM, it’s role and it’s functions), is always going to be a negative. Perhaps I’m just a reformer at heart. Thanks for the reply btw. You appear to have made a not inconsiderable effort to communicate hereabouts. I think perhaps you should be educating _some_ of the apparently absent CSM members in the art of conversation and debate. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/137 "2020-04-20T14:00:20Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Again, even without them, big groups will still be big. And, as I keep explaining, big groups are not inherently bad. They’re not for everybody, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad. Without diminishing return on size, they are bad. The other option would be to make sure the more members work together the less efficient it will be, e.g. diminishing return on more fleet members, more logis, more space, more dense usage, more ratting, etc. There must be a way to break the n+1 game, without making things boring. Maybe introducing more special roles in fleets, so more people’s skills matter. Not having 90% F1 pushers solving the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/138 "2020-04-20T14:02:31Z")
> [@Galaxy\_Raid](#): > > And where have I asked for the game to change to suit my wants / desires? The point I was making was that while you claim not to care about the direction of the game, and you’ll just go elsewhere if they do something you don’t like, you’re here commenting on the forums in a thread about the CSM. That’s not the behavior of someone who is completely checked out and doesn’t care what happens to the game. ---
**Author:** ![Galaxy\_Raid](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/galaxy_raid/32/217870_2.png) [@Galaxy\_Raid](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Galaxy_Raid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/139 "2020-04-20T14:06:29Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The point I was making was that while you claim not to care about the direction of the game, and you’ll just go elsewhere if they do something you don’t like, you’re here commenting on the forums in a thread about the CSM. That’s not the behavior of someone who is completely checked out and doesn’t care what happens to the game. People stay married for a lot longer than they should too. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/141 "2020-04-20T14:07:40Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > There must be a way to break the n+1 game, without making things boring. Maybe introducing more special roles in fleets, so more people’s skills matter. Not having 90% F1 pushers solving the problem. There are plenty of ways to beat N+1, but keep in mind this is a fundamental premise in real life as much as it is EVE. Bring more forces to bear than the other guy is fundamental military policy and has been forever. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/142 "2020-04-20T14:08:51Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’ve provided evidence. Of course I can’t provide the actual numbers from a company I’m not a part of, but I’ve clearly pointed to fairly compelling evidence, while all you’ve done is stopped noshing Mittani off long enough to scream “tinfoil hattery” while selectively ignoring any point you’ll struggle with. You’ve provided anecdote and conspiracy theory. I’m co-host on the top show on Imperium News on twitch. You know how much money I’ve gotten from Twitch donations? Zero. You don’t know what you’re talking about. INN is the only twitch/news provider that is affiliated with a specific in game group. None of the others are. There are no ads on INIT’s forums, for instance. None on Goons, either. The cost of a 5,000 person dedicated mumble server, for instance, is significant. I’ve seen no evidence, despite being inside for years, that what you’re saying is even remotely accurate. It’s all tin-foil hat nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/144 "2020-04-20T14:12:13Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You seem to have completely ignored the fact that they pay for writers for their commercial news site with ISK Paying people doing EVE stuff outside the game for isk has long been a permitted activity and isn’t rmt because no real money is involved. Paying someone isk for an EVE news story is fine. That said, your usual tinfoil isn’t as far wrong as normal on the topic of real earnings from sites. ---
**Author:** ![Elwha\_Lynx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elwha_lynx/32/246048_2.png) [@Elwha\_Lynx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elwha_Lynx)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/146 "2020-04-20T14:23:05Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There are plenty of ways to beat N+1, but keep in mind this is a fundamental premise in real life as much as it is EVE. Bring more forces to bear than the other guy is fundamental military policy and has been forever. True (and called attrition warfare). The problem to a large degree is it’s the only winning type at present with little to no room, mechanics, or incentive to use other forms–such as risks taking maneuver warfare. War in Eve is more like Western Europe circa ~1917, when it would be a lot more fun to play a game like North Africa ~1943. i also agree with the others that perfect and instantaneous intel (from APIs to local), as well as current asset safety (no meaningful risk), contribute to the stagnation. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/147 "2020-04-20T14:26:19Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > How is no real money invovled? Mittani runs a company that operates a gaming media site. Writers, artists and editors are paid in ISK for content that is provided on that site in return for ad revenue, merch and income through twitch through donations, subs, merch, affilliate links and sponsorship. CCP’s “ISK for articles” policy was there to allow small fansites to get a variety of viewpoints from players and build up EVE related content, not so that it could be exploited by companies for financial gain. Under this philosophy, BjornBee and every other major streamer that makes money off their EVE related streams is engaging in RMT. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=8)