# CSM 14 Second Summit Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, csm\ **Created:** [April 17, 2020, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538 "2020-04-17T17:09:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Kell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucas_kell/32/393556_2.png) [@Lucas\_Kell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucas_Kell)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/148 "2020-04-20T14:33:50Z")
(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged) ---
**Author:** ![Dianera\_Dragosha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dianera_dragosha/32/328427_2.png) [@Dianera\_Dragosha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dianera_Dragosha)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/149 "2020-04-20T14:34:51Z")
Thank you for the minutes, it looks like a lot of important topics have been thoroughly discussed and I’m looking forward how their impact works out in the near future. And thank you CCP Aurora for keeping up with tradition to include a delicious recipe! ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/150 "2020-04-20T14:41:07Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Then you’re either a liar or not accepting your cut. Based on your history, I imagine it’s the former. I am the most honest person in this game, Lucas. You all know who I am in real life, and the only time my integrity has been questioned, I was cleared completely. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That’s because the Imperium news site and twitch stream are the income generators for your partiular coalition. What websites are generating revenue for Legacy, PanFam, and WinterCo? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You definitely have but again, you’d never admit it. Again, even the publicly available information on methods of monetisation is evidence, as is that WSJ article showing that years back it was providing “comfortable income” before it grew into an even larger gaming media site. “Comfortable income” is meaningless - it’s a throwaway line that’s completely subjective. What’s comfortable for me personally is probably different than you, and what’s comfortable for a niche news site is different than what might be comfortable for an individual. Regardless, absent some actual numbers, this is all just speculation on your part. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Not if they are just running a twitch stream and making money through the usual means. That’s just standard fansite monetisation that is normal and anyone can engage it. > > What makes it RMT is that groups like the imperium generate trillions of ISK through their members then pay that ISK to content providers for their company which then generates revenue. That’s different from someone streaming their own gameplay and accepting donations/subs as in that instance no ISK is being used in lieu of cash for compensation. How is it remotely different? People are being paid real life money for playing EVE. If someone is taking isk donations or real cash donations, they’re still getting things of value for playing the game. You’re being hypocritical here. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/152 "2020-04-20T15:20:28Z")
> Blockquote\> But advocating a change that benefits your group more than others? Well, hey. That’s politics. I don’t like it, I went out of my way not to do it, and I think others should do the same thing, but that’s a question of morality, not legality, and there’s nothing requiring them to be better than their base instincts. “Character is what you are in the dark” Dwight L. Moody In the game and as long as you play by the established rules, anything is fair. However, deciding to be selfish,greedy, and non empathetic while acting as representative of the players, no matter who those players or style of play are, is a dereliction of ethical and moral responsibility. The CSM helps direct the allocation of real life resources and guides governing rules for a product that hundreds of thousands of players pay for with real money. The CSM notes revealed the base instincts of most of the current CSM. Brisc, while you and I never saw eye to eye on numerous items, I really did appreciate the effort of you reaching out to all players. I considered you a good representative. However, most of the rest of the CSMs over the years obviously have had their own selfish goals. The almost complete lack of any empathy or ability to even understand REASONABLE requests or ideas from those groups outside of their own is just astonishing. Combined with CCP’s poor record of misinterpreting their own data and what it indicates the reasonable players’ needs or wants has led us to this spot. That the CSM continues to use the same self serving and morally/ethically challenged methods that earned them wealth and power in the game while serving on a regulatory advisory board is a shame. Perhaps I expect better of people. I know I expect more from myself and those I associate with on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/153 "2020-04-20T15:22:55Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You mean the one time you were accused CCP decided they didn’t have enough concrete proof (probably because they don’t have access to private comms on third party providers) and because you have made it clear who you are in real life they decided that they didn’t want to potentially face a accusations of libel and so unbanned you. > > You realise that any other player would have been banned under those circumstances and it’s only because you’ve publicised who you really are that gets you the special treatment of CCP having to have concrete legal evidence to act against you, right? None of what you just said here was accurate. The Dev Blog that highlighted my unbanning made it clear that the charges were false, and we were cleared unequivocally of wrong-doing. It had nothing to do with lawsuits, or anything else. The other two guys who were banned were also reinstated, and their identities weren’t publicized, so that blows that part of your ■■■■■■■■ theory out of the water, too. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I think some of the leaders of panfam have a podcast and twitch streams. Obviously the Imperium stands out because it’s been built from the ground up to drive monetisation. I’ll save you some time - they don’t. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But it’s clearly not what you were describing, where you were suggesting that INN is just breaking even. I can’t imagine Mittani has a particularly low bar for “comfortable”. If you’ve watched the Meta Show long enough, you’d know that the Mittani’s grandfather invented the heart stent, and his parents are doctors and he’s a lawyer. He’s not living the high life off money generated from ad revenue on a video game website, dude. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > But you don’t have numbers either. I’ve quite clearly pointed to fairly compelling evidence that income is being generated while you’ve just gone “Nope, we’re all poors”. It’s not even like I expect more than your from that though. You’re a puppet of the Imperium, so there’s no reason you’d do anything but push out denials and attack the credibility of anyone raising an opposition. I can get the numbers in ten seconds if I ask for them. I don’t care enough because it doesn’t matter. Nobody is getting rich off INN. The whole idea is absurd in the extreme. I’m only even replying to you now because this is amusing me. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Are you serious? > > A twitch streamer generates content. The consumers generate revenue for the streamer. No ISK involved. > > A content generator generates content. INN buys their content with ISK. INN then provides that content to consumers and consumers generate revenue. ISK is used to buy the content that is sold to the consumer. Therefore INN is paying ISK to a third party to generate revenue. That’s RMT. It’s currently RMT sanctioned by CCP but it’s undeniably RMT. A twitch streamer uses CCP’s IP, shows himself playing it live on stream, and makes money by people donating to watch him play. He can also get in-game donations of items and isk. This is all apparently okay. Selling advertising to people who read stories about people playing EVE is apparently not okay, and hosting streams of people talking about EVE is also apparently not okay. But, hey - keep twisting yourself into a pretzel to justify condemning groups you dislike while not condemning the ones you do. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/154 "2020-04-20T15:24:48Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > The CSM helps direct the allocation of real life resources and guides governing rules for a product that hundreds of thousands of players pay for with real money. The CSM notes revealed the base instincts of most of the current CSM. No, it doesn’t. It’s, at best, a focus group. > [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > Brisc, while you and I never saw eye to eye on numerous items, I really did appreciate the effort of you reaching out to all players. However, most of the rest of the CSMs over the years obviously have had their own selfish goals. The almost complete lack of any empathy or ability to even understand REASONABLE requests or ideas from those groups outside of their own is just astonishing. Combined with CCP’s poor record of misinterpreting their own data and what it indicates the reasonable players’ needs or wants has led us to this spot. > > That the CSM continues to use the same self serving and morally/ethically challenged methods that earned them wealth and power in the game while serving on a regulatory advisory board is a shame. Perhaps I expect better of people. I know I expect more from myself and those I associate with on a daily basis. I don’t think you’re being fair to the rest of the CSM. The vast majority of them are doing what’s in the best interests of the game, not their individual groups. There are always going to be bad apples, but they don’t spoil the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/155 "2020-04-20T15:34:39Z")
i remember we used to fleet together all the time too, like 9 years ago! I think i flew like a hyperion back then, maybe early scimitar fits lol ever since the communities said no more legions, i really havent played since lol, from what i hear legion is “rubbish” in general now, so sad if thats true ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/156 "2020-04-20T15:42:49Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There are plenty of ways to beat N+1, but keep in mind this is a fundamental premise in real life as much as it is EVE. Bring more forces to bear than the other guy is fundamental military policy and has been forever. The difference is in RL this does not always guarantee a win due to the indefinite complexity level. EvE does only provide that and that much of tools/freedom. But I see with your replies again, that you are not willing to even think about this direction likely because of your top of the dogs bias. Which of course means it may be the right direction. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/158 "2020-04-20T15:50:32Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > The difference is in RL this does not always guarantee a win due to the indefinite complexity level. EvE does only provide that and that much of tools/freedom. > > But I see with your replies again, that you are not willing to even think about this direction likely because of your top of the dogs bias. Which of course means it may be the right direction. 😉 It has nothing to do with bias. I have a fundamental difference of opinion on the subject. I don’t see any existential problems with big groups - in fact, I think it’s the opposite. I think the belief that there’s stagnation in nullsec is largely meme at this point, constantly being brought up whenever there’s no active way going on until the next active war. I also do not see a way to break these groups up using in-game mechanics because these groups largely rose prior to the existence of in-game mechanics to make their creation and propagation easier. If people want to get into large groups, life will find a way. So I don’t see the point in harping on it. Folks have a choice on how they want to play the game, and if you want to be part of a large group, that’s just fine. If you don’t, that’s fine, too. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/159 "2020-04-20T15:52:26Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Even in this discussion, I have to be careful what I say just in case you fly off the handle and decide you’re being defamed. This is yet another problem with the CSM. Members like yourself can shut down vast amounts of criticism by openly stating your real identity because it opens people up to a lawsuit if they accuse your character of wrongdoing. It’s unfortunate that the only thing keeping you civil in this context is the mythical threat of a lawsuit. You could, perhaps, try to be a better person and not accuse people of things with no evidence, but I guess that’s a bridge too far. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/161 "2020-04-20T16:05:28Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not about being civil, It’s about whether or not I can say anything negative about you without solid legal evidence behind it. You’ve attacked my character several times with absolutely no evidence and yet I’m having to hold back on even questioning yours in multiple places and having to be hyper-aware of my wording. What I’ve said is that your belief that certain groups in the game are engaging in RMT is nutty. I’ve said that you’re peddling in conspiracy theories with no evidence. I’ve said that your views on many of these things are wrong, and I’ve pointed out why. I have no idea why you are saying the things you’re saying, any more than I have any idea why you must have spent a solid day going back and deleting your entire posting history beyond like two weeks. You’ve, so far, accused CCP of lying in regards to my situation, accused me of leaking my own name so that I could be impossible to punish (which, oddly enough, didn’t apparently stop CCP from trying to do that incorrectly), of being a puppet, among other things. All of that is batshit insane, but you’re still saying it. Man, I wish these forums had a block function so I wouldn’t have to see this lunacy anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/163 "2020-04-20T16:53:00Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’re on the CSM Brisc is on the CSM? ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/165 "2020-04-20T17:23:30Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > One important measure is the removal of third party EvE intel on people. Make APIs lie, and sharing with others a bannable offense, you get the point. Mass anonymous groups which rely on API supervision must be destroyed. Trust shall be the most important currency. I 100% agree. Players getting to use API pulls in the way we do I think ruins a large part of the game. Sure it makes some things really nice but I think it’s a poor trade. Look at Mobile Siphon Units. There were a super neat mechanic that was ruined by the POS owners ability to see within a spreadsheet that someone was siphoning off materials from their reaction towers - all without logging into the game. They were removed because it was an item made pointless because of API. Look at the Logserver / Watchlist debacle… again players access to tools resulted in a complete removal of a part of the game that assisted in hunting. Look at websites that will tell you where gatecamps are at because of… API pulls! Instead of having the route scouted you can glance at a website while you’re taking a poop! —— Look at all the pieces of Eve where weve traded for a diluted experience at the sake of convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/166 "2020-04-20T17:26:55Z")
Just letting you know this is the first time I’ve ever agreed with one of your posts. Today is strange. Please don’t do this to me again. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/167 "2020-04-20T17:41:24Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Again, this is just you defending your masters. Of course they are going to plead poverty to project this exact narrative. Bear in mind that in 2014 the WSJ reported “Mr. Gianturco declined to say how much revenue the site brings in, but he says it is a comfortable income” and the site along with the media surrounding it has grown significantly since then. I’ll remind you that The Mittani and friends were paid by a game developer (was it H1Z1? Can’t remember) to get coax “The Imperium” gaming community to play their shitty Battle Royals game. This normally wouldn’t be an issue but in this case it backs up your accusations. Why would null blocs want to bust up when they have their member base going to a website that directly benefits them irl. These same groups use their website to make you check a tick box verifying that you voted for their CSM bloc ballet. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > “Comfortable income” is meaningless - it’s a throwaway line that’s completely subjective. What’s comfortable for me personally is probably different than you, and what’s comfortable for a niche news site is different than what might be comfortable for an individual. Regardless, absent some actual numbers, this is all just speculation on your part. Doesn’t he live in Madison, WI? My br there went to school there. Can confirm it’s expensive. There’s the yacht parties too. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It’s, at best, a focus group. Shouldn’t then a focus group contain individuals that best know the intimate parts of specific topics? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/168 "2020-04-20T17:56:48Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > This normally wouldn’t be an issue but in this case it backs up your accusations. Why would null blocs want to bust up when they have their member base going to a website that directly benefits them irl. They don’t. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > These same groups use their website to make you check a tick box verifying that you voted for their CSM bloc ballet. And there’s no way to prove you actually did. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Doesn’t he live in Madison, WI? My br there went to school there. Can confirm it’s expensive. There’s the yacht parties too. Did you not read anything I said about where Mittens gets his money from? ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/169 "2020-04-20T18:05:43Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Did you not read anything I said about where Mittens gets his money from? I did in fact read that. He should be proud of his family and their accomplishments. That’s not to say he doesn’t also make a comfortable living from his website. We don’t actually know though, we can only go off his comment to the reporter and so can you. Take a step back man lol. You’re getting trolled. Let the active CSM members defend these claims of self-serving motives. You are one person from a previous term and again, this is Eve Online. You trying to play the spin game or metagame here wouldn’t be surprising. Hope you’re doing well Brisc. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/170 "2020-04-20T18:06:51Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I wish these forums had a block function There is! I use it very frequently. Profile \> Preferences \> Users Looks like this. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/a/2a8f214d4e6c6831030630fd6a9cc2fabf55c8a4.png) ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/171 "2020-04-20T18:16:08Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > I did in fact read that. He should be proud of his family and their accomplishments. That’s not to say he doesn’t also make a comfortable living from his website. We don’t actually know though, we can only go off his comment to the reporter and so can you. Or, since I work with the guy, you can take my word for it. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Take a step back man lol. You’re getting trolled. Let the active CSM members defend these claims of self-serving motives. You are one person from a previous term and again, this is Eve Online. You trying to play the spin game or metagame here wouldn’t be surprising. I’m not spinning anything - I freely admit that not every CSM member has approached their duties as I have. But the bulk do. I’m not a metagamer. I’m just a line member. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538/172 "2020-04-20T18:16:21Z")
> [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > There is! I use it very frequently. > Profile \> Preferences \> Users Finally. They hide it pretty well. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-14-second-summit-meeting-minutes/233538.md?page=9)