# CSM 15 - All You Need to Know **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog, csm\ **Created:** [April 21, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548 "2020-04-21T19:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 12:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/229 "2020-04-23T12:14:04Z")
WOW - One of the most narrow minded and utterly stupid sentences i’ve ever read on these forums. > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > There is a reason why almost every game out there takes into consideration the “best” players in order to run balance passes. Followed by another little gem; > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > I would rather listen to feedback from people who know what they’re talking about, instead of garbage. Trying to say the CSM is the cream of the crop as far as Eve goes - How fuking deluded are you - Whatever drugs you are taking, I want some. NB; Not one of the games you compared Eve to is anything like Eve.,. But you do make a great argument for not having a CSM Everyone needs to bycot the next CSM elections - They are impotent and as Scoots just pointed out so clearly AREN’T close to representative of Eve as a whole but simply their playstyles which does not fit with Scoots own description of what CCP should be looking for when it comes to input. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/230 "2020-04-23T13:04:51Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > I bet 2 yrs, It is going to take time. > > Edit; Or more… More there needs to be a reduction in excess isk across the board. Right now small groups and individuals are feeling the lack of income while those with massive stockpiles are quietly sitting back waiting to see “what’s next”. Problem is, if CCP continue to use the same “development” trend of one size fits all. There may be no-one left but the richest and a few noobies to develop for. Rattati needs to look at ways to get the biggest most dominant groups to risk and lose assets and isk, in a big way - And sooner rather than later. Then and only then can he continue with his plan for a more balanced economy. CCP Rattati; Higher production vs destruction isn’t the problem - A lack of reasons to risk it all is the one and only problem that needs to be addressed before any other real change can come about.,. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/231 "2020-04-23T13:13:16Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > If a candidate has spent 60% of his time in Null Sec, 30% of his time doing Trade and 10% of his time in High Sec, after his experience has been verified he’s then qualified to run for the Null Sec seat. Doesn’t matter if he has recently moved into a W-hole, his experience shows him qualified for the Null Sec seat. How hard is that to understand? I started playing this game in 2006. I didn’t leave high sec/low sec for ten years. I’ve spent the last 4 years in and around nullsec primarily. I still run missions in high sec - I’m literally doing that right now. Am I a high sec qualified candidate? Or just null? I have a market alt that’s got perfect market skills. Do I qualify as an industry candidate? This is where this whole discussion breaks down. Many people have more than one character, most characters are specialized to a specific activity. And, again, all the big nullblocs have people with characters that could and would qualify for any specific seat requirements that CCP places on them, giving those groups the advantage. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > I really don’t care about your examples because that’s all in the past from an old system that has proven itself year after year that it doesn’t equally represent the majority of the playerbase. Like I said, those who oppose making a change to the current election policy just want to maintain their 'Status Quo’. In short, that’s the root of the problem. > > So instead of constantly trying to shout out those who seek a change for a better policy, how about helping to figure out a better procedure that will enable a more balanced CSM, one that will provide equal representation for all. The reality is that those who support the status quo do so because the system generally works, the representation hasn’t been lacking, the folks elected largely push for things that benefit the entire game not just their own play style and their own interests, and the difficulty in building and policing a system that appears more fair but will simply be gamed by the organized (as everything is) is too high for the value proposition. There is no way to ensure equal representation within a democratically elected system. The system will always reflect the electorate who chooses to vote, not the entire public. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/232 "2020-04-23T13:31:57Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Do you see how all of that requires significantly more effort than the average Nullsec candidate has to put in when he has the voting power of a bloc behind them? It requires effort. Not significantly more effort, because the reality is that to be at the top of a nullsec bloc’s ballot, they have to be someone who has done enough to justify being there. There are handful of people who have gotten to the levels of someone like Vily, Aryth, Innominate, Merkelchen, Sort Dragon, etc. They’ve put in tens of thousands of hours of work playing the game and making it more fun for thousands of players. That’s a ■■■■ ton more work than having to actually run a campaign for a couple of weeks. I think it’s happened maybe one time in the entire CSM when a nullbloc ran a relative nobody in a high position on their ballot to get them elected. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Again it’s not as easy as “lol just get off ur butt”. Highsec is a neglected part of the game and it shows everywhere: here on the forums, on r/eve, and through CCPs lack of “getting Highsec right”. People that play in other areas of space appear to not care at all about Highsec other than new player retention. The average player in Highsec is either new or casual and has little stake in it. I care about high sec. I think everybody cares about high sec. We all spend time there, we all have high sec alts that do specific tasks. But, frankly, other than needing more PvE content in the form of missions and the like, and - of course - the complaints of the handful of high sec PvPers - you don’t see a massive groundswell of complaints about how screwed up high sec is. Most folks can’t even agree what the most important issue for high sec is. That’s not the same for low sec or null sec space, and thus CCP is going to turn their attention to areas where it’s easier to figure out what the problems are. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Who do you think watch these talk shows and listen to the pod casts? I can tell you it’s not your average Highsec player. I get it though, “we should get off our buttz!”. I concede here though because it’s clear you expect Highsec candidates to do things to get elected that your Nullbloc friends absolutely do not have to do. High sec candidates are the equivalent of third party candidates in real life. Yes, it’s harder for them. But it’s not impossible. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Also nothing against Steve, but at this point I believe he gets elected because everyone just likes him and he’s a 3rd party app guy. I don’t recall reading anything of substance from him in any of the CSM minutes. I’d be curious to know what he actually has done and what kinds of players and groups he’s approached for feedback. He isn’t what I would consider to be a Highsec candidate. He’s just… there. Steve has done a ■■■■ ton of things, and he’s one of the most respected players. Most of the CSM work is done behind the scenes. I’m sitting here looking at my hud and I can see at least one thing immediately that Steve was responsible for - the search bar. He’s done a ton of work. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/233 "2020-04-23T14:49:09Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I started playing this game in 2006. I didn’t leave high sec/low sec for ten years. I’ve spent the last 4 years in and around nullsec primarily. I still run missions in high sec - I’m literally doing that right now. Am I a high sec qualified candidate? Or just null? I have a market alt that’s got perfect market skills. Do I qualify as an industry candidate? OMG, just exactly how obtuse can you get? Let’s say there’s 10 different seats available with each seat assigned to represent a specific segment of the game. So what if you’re qualified to represent various seats, you pick one seat and go for it. Also it doesn’t matter about your alt character, that character isn’t running for the CSM so your point about that is mute. Now if you want to represent the Trade segment of the game then you’d use that character to establish your experience and be verified as a qualified representative for that seat. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > This is where this whole discussion breaks down. Many people have more than one character, most characters are specialized to a specific activity. And, again, all the big nullblocs have people with characters that could and would qualify for any specific seat requirements that CCP places on them, giving those groups the advantage. No, this is where the system breaks down. We don’t know your alt characters and quite frankly until proof is provided, it’s all just lip service. And your statement about the people in the big Null Blocks, that’s the main reason why the CSM doesn’t work, it’s being gamed by a small group of players that only act in their own interest. As for history, there’s a lot of players with a long history of experience in this game and not all of them belong to a big Null Sec Alliance. Just because they aren’t in Null Sec doesn’t mean their input is any less important. Hell, I’ve been a paid subscriber to this game since mid 2008, my character has +5.8 Security Status and positive standings with almost all Factions in this game. I created the Faction Standing Repair Plan in 2010 which has helped countless players over the years and have been an active member of these forums since I first started playing this game. I was one of the main contributors of the PvE section in Evelopedia before CCP shut it down and have also created and edited numerous pages in Eve Survival: Mission Reports. Over the years I’ve helped lot’s of new players in RUN NPC starter Corp and for a time I also conducted quite a few Exploration Opps with them. I’ve done Invention, Manufacturing, Mining, etc, etc, etc. Out of game I’m also the Organizer of California Capsuleers, founded in 2011, that has Event Hosts promoting and conducting monthly Eve Meets. So don’t talk to me about history or contributing to this game. More importantly don’t try to sell me a load of baloney that the only qualified experienced players in this game are those in Null Sec Alliances or that they push for changes that benefit all players. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/234 "2020-04-23T15:11:27Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > OMG, just exactly how obtuse can you get? > > Let’s say there’s 10 different seats available with each seat assigned to represent a specific segment of the game. So what if you’re qualified to represent various seats, you pick one seat and go for it. > > Also it doesn’t matter about your alt character, that character isn’t running for the CSM so your point about that is mute. Now if you want to represent the Trade segment of the game then you’d use that character to establish your experience and be verified as a qualified representative for that seat. I’m not being obtuse. I’m trying to help you understand why this proposal is dumb. Is the high sec candidate only going to opine on things about high sec? Or are they expected to understand and listen to feedback from other areas of the game? Most players have spent a varied amount of time in many aspects of the game and are familiar with them. What possible good does it do to pigeonhole somebody into a specific slot on the CSM when they’re going to be expected to opine and discuss things that aren’t focused solely on that playstyle? And, in the end, it’s just going to get gamed anyway. It’s not going to make anybody in high sec feel better if Aryth runs as the high sec rep, CCP approves it and he gets elected. They’re still going to scream that nullsec is over-represented, even if the person has the requisite experience. So then there will be calls to limit the number of groups that can be represented, and that’ll be met with holding corps or newb corps for specific characters, and then there will be more calls, et cetera. In the end, you’re going to turn the community team into an election administration office and the result will be a CSM that doesn’t look much different than it did before and provides basically the same feedback. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > So don’t talk to me about history or contributing to this game. More importantly don’t try to sell me a load of baloney that the only qualified experienced players in this game are those in Null Sec Alliances or that they push for changes that benefit all players. Then why don’t you sack up and run? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/235 "2020-04-23T15:13:30Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > mute The word you’re looking for here is ‘moot’. And the problem with the ‘10 seats for specific segments of the game’ argument is that most of the time, CCP doesn’t _touch_ all of those areas of the game. Unil this last term, how long had it been since they did anything serious about markets? So without ‘this is what’s on our road map’ _a year ahead of time_, why would you think people should pay attention to ‘market CSM’? And frankly, how do you propose that seat ever _not_ going to Aryth? I mean, if you’ve got 10 specific seats, then you’d have to run for those seats separately, and count votes for them separately, right? So.. how do you keep us from putting exactly who we want into **each and every one** of those seats, **every year**? ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/236 "2020-04-23T15:42:44Z")
OMG, you people are so obstinate that you’ll pull any excuse out of the bag in an attempt to keep your special interest group happening. Just because someone get’s a seat for a specific segment of the game doesn’t mean they can’t provide input on other aspects of the game. Also as said earlier, there can be a Cap placed on the amount of members to keep the CSM from becoming a monopoly for a specific group. And yes, I propose that CCP vet all characters first to validate they are indeed qualified and experienced to run as a candidate for CSM. Anyway, I’m tired of all this ‘what if’ plots and ‘Doom & Gloom’ scenarios you guys keep spouting. Thanks for verifying that the current system is indeed broken which has been constantly gamed by the Null Sec Blocks and they’ll continue to do it no matter what system is put in place. @Arrendis I meant it as mute because his argument isn’t sound. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/237 "2020-04-23T15:48:36Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > I meant it as mute because his argument isn’t sound. To horribly maul Churchill… that was the stupidest thing you’ve said, except for all the other things you’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/238 "2020-04-23T15:54:05Z")
Heh, the only stupid thing here is all the obsessive bullsh\*t you keep spouting. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/239 "2020-04-23T15:55:57Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Anyway, I’m tired of all this ‘what if’ plots and ‘Doom & Gloom’ scenarios you guys keep spouting. Thanks for verifying that the current system is indeed broken which has been constantly gamed by the Null Sec Blocks and they’ll continue to do it no matter what system is put in place. The current system isn’t broken, but it will continue to be gamed by the null blocs because that’s what we do. We play the game. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/240 "2020-04-23T16:06:47Z")
Oh, how witty. Since the current system is being manipulated and gamed by Null Sec then it is indeed broken. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/241 "2020-04-23T16:32:16Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The current system isn’t broken, but it will continue to be gamed by the null blocs because that’s what we do. We play the game. And that statement is exactly why the CSM should be scrapped. ---
**Author:** ![Wander\_Prian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wander_prian/32/394208_2.png) [@Wander\_Prian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wander_Prian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/242 "2020-04-23T16:38:55Z")
It’s only being gamed because everyone else has decided to not even try. ---
**Author:** ![Nephew\_Ruckus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nephew_ruckus/32/199845_2.png) [@Nephew\_Ruckus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nephew_Ruckus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/243 "2020-04-23T16:46:42Z")
WHY is there such a fear to put the CSM to a simple up or down vote? None of my three accounts have voted in years because of frankly the situation is rigged. I have a work hypotheses. Elimination of the CSM would weaken Null power hold! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/244 "2020-04-23T17:04:47Z")
> [@Nephew\_Ruckus](#): > > WHY is there such a fear to put the CSM to a simple up or down vote? What fear? And a simple up or down vote for what? A slate of candidates? Or do you mean each _player_ gets 1 vote, not each omega account? > [@Nephew\_Ruckus](#): > > Elimination of the CSM would weaken Null power hold! This presumes the CSM has _power_. They don’t. Ask any of the ex/CSMs who’ve posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/245 "2020-04-23T17:17:43Z")
> [@Wander\_Prian](#): > > It’s only being gamed because everyone else has decided to not even try. The fact it is “being gamed” should be enough to see it gone - Gaming = exploiting. When CCP was an online gaming company they used to ban people for using exploits ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/246 "2020-04-23T17:21:03Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Gaming = exploiting No, ‘gaming’ == making the most of the active rules set. And **every** set of rules can be gamed. You want good reasons not to disband the CSM, go talk to ex-members who are past the 5-year NDA limit and ask them what boneheaded things CCP _wanted_ to do, but got talked out of. Or look at the minutes literally any year, where people like ExookiZ have to explain to CCP how their game actually _works_. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/247 "2020-04-23T17:35:42Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Oh, how witty. > > Since the current system is being manipulated and gamed by Null Sec then it is indeed broken. No, it’s not. The system allows for the kind of gaming that exists. Any system you could put into place would result in gaming to maximize outcomes for the people who want those outcomes. It’s inevitable in any contest with a limited number of seats that are sought after. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/248 "2020-04-23T17:37:26Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > And that statement is exactly why the CSM should be scrapped. As long as CCP derives some benefit from the CSM, it’s not going anywhere. The players didn’t create the CSM, the players won’t end it, and I do not understand why this concept is so difficult for so many that these same goofy “DISBAND THE CSM” posts arrive, like clock work, every year. This is the absolute cheapest focus group and market research that CCP can get. Why would they ever get rid of it when every other option costs ten times as much and doesn’t get them any free marketing? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548.md?page=10) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548.md?page=12)