# CSM 15 - All You Need to Know **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog, csm\ **Created:** [April 21, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548 "2020-04-21T19:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gergoran\_Moussou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gergoran_moussou/32/381607_2.png) [@Gergoran\_Moussou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gergoran_Moussou)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/289 "2020-04-25T05:34:21Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Move some dreads into place. If they are on or near your borders you may get to splat some unfortunates who try to use the new mechanics coming soon I think the alliance has some higher priorities to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 7:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/290 "2020-04-25T07:16:33Z")
You’d know this how? Not that i care, 1 F1 monkey is the same as any other. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/291 "2020-04-25T12:05:30Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > In the context in which we are using the phrase, it means “working within the rules of the existing system to maximize positive outcomes for a specific group.” The outcome isn’t “to make CCP do what we want,” either. It’s “to elect as many people as we can.” Getting as many of your Alliance members elected to the CSM as you can gives you a monopoly on controlling it, thus allowing you to push for changes that will benefit your own interests, not the interests of the general playerbase. Doesn’t matter how much you sugarcoat it, you’re still manipulating the system and exploiting it to further your own agendas with CCP. If it wasn’t beneficial and profitable for your Alliance, then you wouldn’t be doing it. That’s what makes the current system broken. The format for selecting and electing CSM members needs to be restructured to ensure all segments of the game are equally represented. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/292 "2020-04-25T14:22:40Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Getting as many of your Alliance members elected to the CSM as you can gives you a monopoly on controlling it, thus allowing you to push for changes that will benefit your own interests, not the interests of the general playerbase. That’s not how the CSM works. Nobody “controls” it. Having multiple people on does not increase your influence, or make it more likely that the developers are going to make changes to specifically benefit you. As I have repeated a dozen times, written articles about, explained on every podcast, and talked about on reddit, the vast majority of the things the CSM comment on are things CCP brings to them that are geared towards the entire player base, not just null sec or a specific alliance. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Doesn’t matter how much you sugarcoat it, you’re still manipulating the system and exploiting it to further your own agendas with CCP. If it wasn’t beneficial and profitable for your Alliance, then you wouldn’t be doing it. As amazing as it sounds, there are reasons for doing the CSM beyond “this benefits my alliance directly” or “this is profitable.” Being on the CSM cost me far more in time, isk and real life money than any benefit I derived from it. I did it because it was something special in the game that I felt was achievable, and let me leave my mark on EVE in a way that many others couldn’t, but that let me use my relatively rare skills to accomplish. Half the reason the big groups put their people on is prestige, but there certainly are folks who don’t understand what the CSM is and what it can do that think the way you do. They are disabused of their incorrect views pretty quickly. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > That’s what makes the current system broken. The format for selecting and electing CSM members needs to be restructured to ensure all segments of the game are equally represented. The “segments” don’t need representation. The players who play the game do. And they get that, through the current system. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/293 "2020-04-25T22:46:14Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > They are disabused of their incorrect views pretty quickly. No they aren’t, many will always see the _Imperium CSM_ because we see pompus self serving CSM make statements like > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > and let me leave my mark on EVE in a way that many others couldn’t, Even in todays new meta with literally thousands of players having had years of training, time and money thrown out the window by CCP the Imperium appears to be right at the centre of it. We have current and previous members of the _Imperium CSM_ telling us about private conversations they’ve had with staff at CCP - Clearly projects the perception - “We got this” our friends at CCP… > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The “segments” don’t need representation. The players who play the game do. And they get that, through the current system. Either that is a blatant lie OR the CSM really is a waste of time. EVERYTHING CCP has done recently directly affects small groups and individuals while leaving those affiliated with the CSM (The Imperium and others like them) to “adapt a little” to carry on as usual. I’ve seen nothing that would indicate “The players who play the game” outside blocs are being taken into account with development. In fact personally I see recent development is just plain terrible for anyone not in a mega group. Every economic report released for years clearly shows where the stockpiles of isk are in the game, yet CCP in conjunction with the CSM release blanket nerfs that destroy developed playstyles for thousands of players that don’t have the asset stockpiles of the blocs. We have CSM affiliated group members talking about building 2 bil isk logi to counter the recent nerfs to resists, while thousands of “those who play the game” can’t afford to replace doctrine ships when lost. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/294 "2020-04-25T22:56:58Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > “We got this” our friends at CCP… Was it all in caps? JK 😄 I know your pissed at your situation and I would like to help in game, but I think you reading to much into this. I don’t see the CSM as all powerful anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/295 "2020-04-25T23:22:12Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The “segments” don’t need representation. The players who play the game do. And they get that, through the current system. i dunno, there seems to be an bit of dislike for the incursion runners despite “oasa” and “delve” making more isk in those 2 regions alone (12.9t vs 15t). Why is the CSM suggesting that all incursion runners get pvp flagged but no mention of balancing out these 2 systems that seem to be absolutely broken? Then theres the wild and stupid claim that all high sec miners are bots. Didnt even mention any evidence just said that and got it put into the minutes to post publicly. Meanwhile again “delve” and “oasa” has 3 times as much as the best highsec location. Is that all being run by active humans? If so how? they obviously are all out running sites 24/7 to get more isk than all the entire incursion community combined. why am I bothering to post this? Because you cant say all the players are being represented when public posts are being make that blanket lie or offer up “solutions” that destroy viability of an entire portion of the game - which isnt even leading the charge in its given resource generation. Why nerf the 3rd best place? why not eyeball the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/296 "2020-04-25T23:38:01Z")
To be honest, neither do i and that is a big part of my issues with it. When you have any sort of feedback/ representative group they are only useful for as long as they are actually useful for the task they were put there for. The CSM has run its course and CCP need to find a more effective method of getting feedback from the masses. If they don’t want feedback in any real sense, which appears to be the case with how they use the CSM, then just stop asking for it. My current situation and next months citadel changes only compounds the issues I’m facing personally. I’m hoping my support ticket will lead to a fruitful outcome for when I am able to return to the game if I choose to. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/297 "2020-04-26T00:22:19Z")
I sent you a pm in game hoping to help out with one of my alts. My Mom just turned a 101 so I can see the text/ph call now… (sry if your Mum is not still with you) Mom, I need you to open my laptop and log into the game for me 😱 OK… 🙀 You need to etc… You get the point. 😄 As for the CSM, they are good PR. Useless or not, and I can only speak for myself, I still think it’s a good idea. Stay in touch and let us know if CCP answers your ticket! ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/298 "2020-04-26T00:49:18Z")
And just to try to keep you entertained… Your stuck in the middle of nowhere. I’m stuck with my 101 yr mom and a redheaded wife. I envy you. > **[The BFD Video: Coronavirus Quarantine Choice: (A) with Your Wife and Kids or...](https://thebfd.co.nz/2020/03/26/the-bfd-video-coronavirus-quarantine-choice-a-with-your-wife-and-kids-or-b/)** > > If you have a great Youtube or Vimeo video to share send it to videos@thebfd.co.nz ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/299 "2020-04-26T06:02:01Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > No they aren’t, many will always see the _Imperium CSM_ because we see pompus self serving CSM make statements like It’s not pompous. I’m not an alliance leader, or a famous FC. I made my mark in EVE by using my real life skills to get elected to CSM. There have been fewer than 100 CSM members over the years, so this was my way of being part of EVE history. I busted my ass and worked pretty damn hard to get elected. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > We have current and previous members of the _Imperium CSM_ telling us about private conversations they’ve had with staff at CCP - Clearly projects the perception - “We got this” our friends at CCP… EVE Devs talk to players daily. You don’t need to be in the Imperium or on the CSM to interact with an EVE developer. There’s no other development team in gaming that is as approachable as the folks at CCP. > [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > I’ve seen nothing that would indicate “The players who play the game” outside blocs are being taken into account with development. In fact personally I see recent development is just plain terrible for anyone not in a mega group. Then you’re not paying attention, and there’s nothing more I can really say to you, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/300 "2020-04-26T06:04:59Z")
> [@Aramatheia](#): > > Why is the CSM suggesting that all incursion runners get pvp flagged but no mention of balancing out these 2 systems that seem to be absolutely broken? You seem to have missed all of the massive changes to the ratting and mining meta that have occurred over the last year and a half that have dramatically nerfed the isk generation levels of the players in those regions. > [@Aramatheia](#): > > why am I bothering to post this? Because you cant say all the players are being represented when public posts are being make that blanket lie or offer up “solutions” that destroy viability of an entire portion of the game - which isnt even leading the charge in its given resource generation. Why nerf the 3rd best place? why not eyeball the first place? I’m sorry that you were personally offended by some of the comments made by some of the CSM members. But that does not negate what I’m saying. All players are being represented by the CSM. If you don’t think that’s accurate, than the best solution isn’t to argue with me, it’s to run for CSM. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 7:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/301 "2020-04-26T07:05:43Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > > > That’s what makes the current system broken. The format for selecting and electing CSM members needs to be restructured to ensure all segments of the game are equally represented. > > The “segments” don’t need representation. The players who play the game do. And they get that, through the current system. You’re deliberately being obtuse and ambiguous about what I’m saying. You know damn well I’m talking about representing the interests of all players and the various types of game content they all engage in. The current CSM system does not provide equal representation for all players. You saying otherwise is a blatant lie. The current CSM voting system is easily manipulated and exploited by large Null Sec Blocs to ensure enough of their members are elected so that a more unified viewpoint is presented to CCP about various game topics, thus securing more influence upon CCP to progress with changes that will benefit Null Sec interests. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 8:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/302 "2020-04-26T08:31:17Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > If you don’t think that’s accurate, than the best solution isn’t to argue with me, it’s to run for CSM. If i was nearly as invested into eve like i was in 2012-13 I probably would. I am not at that level anymore, and alot of stuff has changed since then. I dont run my 5 client mining ops anymore or do incursions. Aside from level 4 missions I had pretty much experienced all of high sec content except for proper high sec wars. Only ever got troll decced by people trying to mess up whatever corp i was in’s members from doing incursions anyway. I have missed out on alot of the finer tuning adjustment passes to bounty stuff, mostly due to my reduced intensity of playing these days - especially mining given that I havent done that in over 6 years now. Funny story I was on this character for a bit a month or so ago and discovered i still had 5 or 6 assembled battleships which I hadnt taken to a trade hub to sell yet. I used to fill a providence with them and web it into warp all the way to market. As it is i’m mostly running around doing cosmic signatures and expeditions on an alpha i created a couple of months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/303 "2020-04-26T13:59:13Z")
Appreciate the offer but I don’t actually own a computer atm. In fact my home is a 15 year old camper trailer. On the bright side, since the fires and floods, everything I own fits in the camper and my dog is much happier cause he has miles of bush for a backyard 🙂 I’ve sent a ticket to support explaining my situation as best i could, hoping they will move my stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/304 "2020-04-26T14:39:19Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Then you’re not paying attention, and there’s nothing more I can really say to you, dude. Thank Bob for that. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I made my mark in EVE by using my real life skills to get elected to CSM. My bet, you are either a criminal defense lawyer or a used car salesman > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > EVE Devs talk to players daily Yep they do and i’ve seen many times how quickly they will leave as soon as they get asked anything that doesn’t fit their agenda of what they are prepared to discuss. - Several years ago in an alliance mumble with 2 devs discussing upcoming changes, all was going ok until someone mentioned proposed rorqual changes might be too much - The speed with which the channel dropped 2 participants was amazing. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There’s no other development team in gaming that is as approachable as the folks at CCP. Sorry but you are wrong, I played a browser game for many years where the Devs had their own Discord. They actually started listening to players after daily logins dropped below 50K. 6 months later and some hard balancing decisions, logins were back over 100K and I believe are still around that. First thing they did was make it not viable for mega groups to exist - I wonder if that might help Eve? NB; IMO running for CSM to score personal points (_I made my mark_ _my way of being part of Eve history_) is far from what the CSM should be. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/305 "2020-04-26T16:32:52Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > You’re deliberately being obtuse and ambiguous about what I’m saying. You know damn well I’m talking about representing the interests of all players and the various types of game content they all engage in. The current CSM system does not provide equal representation for all players. You saying otherwise is a blatant lie. The current system does provide equal representation for all players. All players get a vote, the people elected are not elected to represent a specific group or playstyle, they represent the entire game. That’s the existing system. You can claim all you want that its not possible for a person who spends most of their time in null sec to represent someone who lives in high sec, just like plenty of people try to argue that a woman couldn’t possibly represent the interests of a man in a real legislature, and you’ll be just as wrong. > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > The current CSM voting system is easily manipulated and exploited by large Null Sec Blocs to ensure enough of their members are elected so that a more unified viewpoint is presented to CCP about various game topics, thus securing more influence upon CCP to progress with changes that will benefit Null Sec interests. The current system is tilted, like literally every electoral system ever created, in favor of those who are organized and motivated to vote. Nullsec blocs are able to do this better than anybody else, but it’s not impossible to win without a big coalition supporting you. And, again, winning more seats does not create more influence. That’s just not how the CSM works. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/306 "2020-04-26T16:40:35Z")
lol, what you just posted is a complete fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/307 "2020-04-26T16:41:40Z")
No, it’s how representative democracy works. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548/308 "2020-04-27T06:53:07Z")
There is no such thing as representative democracy. Political parties represent their own ideals and agendas - Party 1 may want to increase welfare spending for low income workers. Party 2 may want to reduce taxes for big business which actually hurts low income earners. Both will say their party line is best for the country - Both are telling porkies to get elected. The Imperium is party 2 NB; There are smaller parties who would represent all but they will never get elected as they don’t have the resources the big groups/parties do. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-15-all-you-need-to-know/234548.md?page=15)