# CSM 16 - All You Need to Know **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm, csm16\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598 "2021-04-14T14:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/105 "2021-04-16T00:30:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not talking about the people who don’t participate in ‘a particular activity’, Ah of course you aren’t, the great Arrendis couldn’t possibly be wrong, I mean it’s not like they posted a specific list of activities at the start of the post or anything… Pull the other leg, stop trying to walk it back and post justify it. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/106 "2021-04-16T01:36:23Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not talking about the people who don’t participate in ‘a particular activity’, I’m talking about the ones who don’t get involved with other players via _any_ of them. I’d say that a large portion of those are alts, alts from people in null. _Of course_ they’re not going to vote for high sec as they’re being ordered to blockvote by their masters. ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/107 "2021-04-16T01:39:15Z")
Say what you want. High sec is the least organized. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/108 "2021-04-16T01:54:28Z")
I don’t think anyone has been disputing that? ---
**Author:** ![Rich\_Darine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rich_darine/32/438327_2.png) [@Rich\_Darine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rich_Darine)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/109 "2021-04-16T01:57:52Z")
> [@bluelysian](#): > > prejudiges prehjudgindces? Why does it have to be about system security status? Plenty of players have had time in their careers doing highsec ■■■■ ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/110 "2021-04-16T02:06:53Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So if they don’t care, why should they get specially catered to? If they’re not going to _bother_ being part of the community, why should they get guaranteed extra representation? Just making sure everyone understands. ---
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/111 "2021-04-16T02:19:51Z")
Pretty sure CCP ran the numbers and excluded alts who voted on the null block orders when they were checking who voted in CSM and who didnt. ---
**Author:** ![Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oriki_ahvilen/32/395043_2.png) [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oriki_Ahvilen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 11:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/112 "2021-04-16T11:26:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not talking about the people who don’t participate in ‘a particular activity’, I’m talking about the ones who don’t get involved with other players via _any_ of them. But it’s practically very hard to achieve in a game like Eve . Even if you just keep to yourself in high sec doing missions or mining/trading, etc. , you still interact with other players . You interact with the market -where the majority of it is player driven - selling that faction loot you converted in the LP store, minerals, buying ships, modules , ammo, PLEX, etc . You’re a tiny cog in the economy , but still you are a part of it. Eve is a game that doesn’t allow you to just be an absolute isolationist . You are involved and a part of the community just by playing it , even if you are aware of this or not. ---
**Author:** ![Tekira\_Ho\_Yanumano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tekira_ho_yanumano/32/256427_2.png) [@Tekira\_Ho\_Yanumano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tekira_Ho_Yanumano)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/113 "2021-04-16T11:39:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > _hat’s_ the majority of the people who don’t leave HS, the ‘true high sec players’ Wargod’s asking to have on the CSM. True high sec players would never join an organization that would have them as a member. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/114 "2021-04-16T12:58:37Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Ah of course you aren’t, the great Arrendis couldn’t possibly be wrong Pffft. I’m wrong all the time. In _this_ case, though, I’m right about what I intended. I will cop to apparently having failed to clearly communicate that intent, though, so that’s on me. Muh bad. > [@Xanthellus](#): > > I’d say that a large portion of those are alts, alts from people in null. Well, then you’re claiming that most of HS is nullsec alts—in which case, nullsec CSM representatives are fine for them, isn’t it? > [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](#): > > But it’s practically very hard to achieve in a game like Eve . Even if you just keep to yourself in high sec doing missions or mining/trading, etc. , you still interact with other players . You interact with the market -where the majority of it is player driven - selling that faction loot you converted in the LP store, minerals, buying ships, modules , ammo, PLEX, etc . You’re a tiny cog in the economy , but still you are a part of it. Which is, indirectly, interaction. Sure, I’ll grant you that. But that’s not the kind of meaningful interaction I, or CCP during those presentations, was talking about. Nobody cares who mined their ore, who farmed the mods they buy. And nobody cares who buys the crap they sell. There is no real, person-to-person connection. ---
**Author:** ![Baatin\_Chaikai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baatin_chaikai/32/376659_2.png) [@Baatin\_Chaikai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baatin_Chaikai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/115 "2021-04-16T13:07:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Great! Remember! Every non-goon vote that doesn’t happen is another effective vote for Goons! On the one hand, of course, I know that “not voting” is not a solution. On the other hand, imho, the lowest possible voter turnout is the only way to withdraw the legitimacy of this board. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/116 "2021-04-16T13:13:26Z")
> [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > On the other hand, imho, the lowest possible voter turnout is the only way to withdraw the legitimacy of this board. Which it won’t, because remember: it’s really just a focus group with a popularity contest slapped on top of it. CCP really doesn’t _care_ what you think or who you want advising them, they just like to be able to say ‘look! Space democracy!’ You really _can’t_ de-legitimize the CSM, and attempts to do so are just misguided performance art that plays into the hands of the people willing to play ball in order to keep CCP from doing the much, much _stupider_ things that both they and the CSM have acknowledged the CSM has prevented. Or, to put it more bluntly: you can’t withdraw the legitimacy of the CSM, because its legitimacy doesn’t come from us, it comes from CCP, and CCP don’t really give a rat’s ass what the masses think. If they did, _this_ wouldn’t be the only topic related to a dev blog / news announcement that _didn’t_ get hit with ‘Slow Mode to promote thoughtful discussion’. ---
**Author:** ![Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oriki_ahvilen/32/395043_2.png) [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oriki_Ahvilen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/117 "2021-04-16T13:47:52Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But that’s not the kind of meaningful interaction I, or CCP during those presentations, was talking about. Nobody cares who mined their ore, who farmed the mods they buy. And nobody cares who buys the crap they sell. This is all but relative … Maybe for you it does not matter who manufactured the stuff you bought or to who you sold your stuff , but for others it does . There are players who care about these things and are deeply into them and that’s enough to justify . You’re basically saying that traders for example are not actively a part of the community . Being a part of the community is also done just by your actions and decisions that you make into this game and not only just by direct communication and interaction , because in the end this is not a single player game. I can be a trader for example with trillions of ISK , not directly interacting , but crashing some market segments that affect all players in the game . Does this not make me a part of the community ? I think it does , because my decisions and actions influenced the entire community and had a direct impact on it. If I am in space and shoot you or gank your hauler … that’s communication too, and I think the message there is not very hard to understand . I think that makes you also a part of the community . Unless… you’re shooting NPCs… ---
**Author:** ![CCP\_Dopamine](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ccp_dopamine/32/280835_2.png) [@CCP\_Dopamine](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/CCP_Dopamine)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/118 "2021-04-16T13:48:46Z")
While we won’t have voting directly in the client, we are planning to have in-game campaign to raise awareness and direct people to vote. We might be able to squeeze some new things but these are still work in progress 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baatin\_Chaikai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baatin_chaikai/32/376659_2.png) [@Baatin\_Chaikai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baatin_Chaikai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/119 "2021-04-16T14:00:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > CCP really doesn’t _care_ what you think or who you want advising them, they just like to be able to say ‘look! Space democracy!’ Just like you mention here, CCP isn’t interested in what I think. So I don’t have to tell it in the form of a senseless voteing. In my opinion, the only reason you / Brisc are so vehemently defending the CSM is the ability to gether information about the game before it is released by CCP. Or why have Goons been trying to gain a foothold in the J-Space(An area where goons are as rare as a hooker who does it for free) for some time. Long before the information about the industry update was published. Coincidence ? Hardly likely. But this discussion leads nowhere. I wish you a nice weekend anyway. Fly save, I CU in the dark ^^ ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/120 "2021-04-16T14:36:04Z")
> [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](#): > > I can be a trader for example with trillions of ISK , not directly interacting , but crashing some market segments that affect all players in the game . > Does this not make me a part of the community ? I think it does , because my decisions and actions influenced the entire community and had a direct impact on it. > If I am in space and shoot you or gank your hauler … that’s communication too, and I think the message there is not very hard to understand . I think that makes you also a part of the community . I’ll just point out wrt the ‘shoot or gank’ part: that’s actually something CCP’s identified as _helping_ retention. It’s direct interaction, and a personal connection. People get shot, blown up… sometimes the ganker turns around to say ‘I can tell you how to avoid that in the future’. Sometimes the player who lost a ship decides they’re going to get even. It’s _direct_ interaction that does form a connection, even if the connection isn’t a friendly one. And I’d say the trader who’s crashing some big segment of the market for :reasons: is doing it _knowing_ that it impacts other people, and making the decision with that knowledge in mind. That’s different than the guy with trillions of ISK who _doesn’t_ do that, who’s just content to play the market as if it’s a single-player game… and there’s plenty of market guys who do that. _Most_ of the big-share market guys, though, _are_ directly interacting with players. They talk to one another. They’re on discord servers and group chats with one another. That’s still involvement with the community. But that’s _not_ a large chunk of highsec. > [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](#): > > Unless… you['re] shooting NPCs… From what’s been said in the past, by CCP, that _is_ the majority of Highsec. And if that’s wrong, and CCP’s got newer numbers, then @CCP_Dopamine can obviously correct me there. I hope they do. I hope Highsec _is_ more involved with each other now than they were 2, 3, 5 years ago. EVE’s a healthier game when more people actually interact with one another. But I can’t make the _assumption_ that it’s improved, and until and unless CCP tells us it’s gotten better, the last thing they’ve told us… … well, it ain’t good, and it doesn’t exactly scream ‘these people deserve more input’. > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > Or why have Goons been trying to gain a foothold in the J-Space(An area where goons are as rare as a hooker who does it for free) for some time. > Long before the information about the industry update was published. > Coincidence ? Hardly likely. Yeah, I mean, it’s not like CCP’s spent the last 18 months nerfing income basically everywhere _except_ J-space, right? Or like we’re in the middle of a war that’s cost us the vast majority of our null holdings, so maybe people are looking for other places to make money. _Gosh_, I guess that _had_ to be about _these_ industry changes! (BTW, we’ve had a presence in J-space since at least 2012, it just comes and goes, because isolated groups of goons tend to become self-absorbed jackwagons who eventually implode.) Meanwhile, Brisc is a line member. He’s not leadership. The CSMs we have who are _part_ of leadership don’t make those decisions. You want to start throwing shade that way? Start asking what moves got made in null the moment Vily and Gobbins were both CSMs. ---
**Author:** ![Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/oriki_ahvilen/32/395043_2.png) [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Oriki_Ahvilen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/121 "2021-04-16T16:08:36Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > From what’s been said in the past, by CCP, that _is_ the majority of Highsec. And that is perfectly fine up to an extent , after all, high sec is the nursery of Eve . No new player is going to start PvP on day one (let’s try to remember how it’s like to be a new player) . It takes time for them to accumulate knowledge , some wealth as some SPs also. The problem is when they don’t break the pattern and just stick to PvE for years and years. You say high sec, but this problem is persistent in null sec also. Most of the new to null sec players that come there , have this exact thing in mind . For them, relocation is just a better opportunity to make more ISK and PvP is secondary (very few get there just with the PvP in mind). Some get cured , some don’t , some are a mix in-between . I can go into detail on the same aspect for j-space and low sec , it isn’t that much different there. If only someone could “balance” things , but I think in the end it’s all a mentality thing , you need players with the right mindset , because no matter what CCP or CSM does to set things in motion , if the soil is infertile , all is just a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/122 "2021-04-16T16:27:09Z")
> [@Oriki\_Ahvilen](#): > > Most of the new to null sec players that come there , have this exact thing in mind . For them, relocation is just a better opportunity to make more ISK and PvP is secondary (very few get there just with the PvP in mind). Sure, but other than renters, the folks coming out to null _have_ to interact with other people. Even if they never speak up, even if all they do is the minimum number of fleets to not get booted, and push F1 when told to, they’re still interacting with other people. They’re just not doing it _well_. And yeah, that’s still a problem, but when the issue is ‘highsec needs more representation than they get’, that comes down to ‘why don’t they get it?’ and the answer is: most of HS doesn’t interact w/people. So they have the lowest amount of voter turnout, and the least organized turnout. So they don’t get the seats. People who do the work, get organized, get name recognition… they get results. Like Mike. And Steve. Hell, _we_ vote for them. We don’t vote for them because we want them to be minions, either. We vote for them because they’ve done the work and demonstrated they have a clue on their focused subject matter. If there were more highsec voices who did that, we’d vote for _them_, too. ---
**Author:** ![State\_Soldier\_1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/state_soldier_1/32/336854_2.png) [@State\_Soldier\_1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/State_Soldier_1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/123 "2021-04-16T18:03:02Z")
Why is this still a thing? Cant even fix the red button… ---
**Author:** ![Baatin\_Chaikai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baatin_chaikai/32/376659_2.png) [@Baatin\_Chaikai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baatin_Chaikai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/124 "2021-04-16T18:09:46Z")
First of all, I do not PvE, is’t boaring. I live by PvP. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Yeah, I mean, it’s not like CCP’s spent the last 18 months nerfing income basically everywhere _except_ J-space, right? Or like we’re in the middle of a war that’s cost us the vast majority of our null holdings, so maybe people are looking for other places to make money. _Gosh_, I guess that _had_ to be about _these_ industry changes! (BTW, we’ve had a presence in J-space since at least 2012, it just comes and goes, because isolated groups of goons tend to become self-absorbed jackwagons who eventually implode.) But here’s a hit Clumsy attempt Goon, the so-called war is just a frenzy. And as long as the TTTin Perimeter is not attacked I don’t believe anything about the “Great War” and such. And yes it is correct that the CCP has not **yet** limited the ISK sources in J-Space. But it is correct too, that the so-called WH-Love-Patch (the biggest disaster since the ECM-Patch 2018) massively impaired the possibility of earning money in the (low-level) -J-Space. At least for solo pilots, something that Goon zerglings are generally completely unknown. Now that you break into this space, will this patch be withdrawn? And again hard to believe in coincidence. But : Hey maybe I am comleetly wrong Try to convince me to the contrary. BTT: Give me (and others )any reason to vote. Give me a reason to read any CSM-16 comercial Compare any comercial with each other, figure out what idea could suppot my playstyle. Most importantly, give me a prove that the CSM has an active influence on PA and Eve Online. And compress it into two lines. Otherwise TL:TR [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598.md?page=7)