# CSM 16 - All You Need to Know **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm, csm16\ **Created:** [April 14, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598 "2021-04-14T14:28:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/125 "2021-04-16T18:24:44Z")
The CSM has prevent CCP from doing some seriously catastrophic things that are a hundred times worse than resource scarcity. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/126 "2021-04-16T18:31:50Z")
Can you show proof of that? ---
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/127 "2021-04-16T18:36:16Z")
Not without breaking an NDA and earning a permaban from CCP. If you ask nicely, I’m sure that at least one dev will be able to corroborate the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/128 "2021-04-16T18:37:58Z")
I want to know what CCP’s idea for Expert Systems was, before they asked for advice from the CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/129 "2021-04-16T18:46:14Z")
A yes the “trust me on this one” approach, sorry no. Don’t get me wrong I fully understand businesses brainfarting ideas to see what sticks, most of those won’t stick even without something like a CSM. Also, “catastrophic” for whom? You? Me? The null block status quo? The people who lead and control that status quo? Short term? Long term? I don’t for one second trust any representative and I’d most certainly not trust them with game design or balancing, way too many ulterior motives. So unless someone states an actual thing, with details, they thought was bad and it was the CSM that stopped it, and _only_ the CSM, none of us have any reason to trust that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/130 "2021-04-16T18:48:48Z")
I didn’t say “trust me”. I said “ask for yourself because I’m not going to get banned because you don’t want to ask CCP yourself”. I take it you have no real clue what is involved in the CSM. When you sign up, you sign a contract that says “I will not share things to the public that CCP talks to me about, under penalty of permanent ban, among other things”. They can literally lose their entire EVE career if they sneeze the wrong thing at someone. You have to ask CCP yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Baatin\_Chaikai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baatin_chaikai/32/376659_2.png) [@Baatin\_Chaikai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baatin_Chaikai)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/131 "2021-04-16T18:56:09Z")
any proof of it, or just the usual latrine slogan? ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/132 "2021-04-16T18:57:30Z")
And why should I trust your word on this? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/133 "2021-04-16T18:58:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > BTW, we’ve had a presence in J-space since at least 2012 Even as a non goon can confirm this. > [@Xanthellus](#): > > And why should I trust your word on this? Because the information about the NDA existing is available all over the place? Now you are just being an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/134 "2021-04-16T19:00:50Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Because the information about the NDA existing is available all over the place? Now you are just being an ass. No I’m asking how he knows the CSM did amazing things, if no one was allowed to tell him that they did? ---
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/135 "2021-04-16T19:01:07Z")
> **[CSM-WHITEPAPER.pdf](https://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/CSM-WHITEPAPER.pdf)** > > 1180.18 KB Page 6. “Non-Disclosure Agreement”. Specifically: "Any behavior or actions considered being a material breach of the EULA, TOS or NDA by a CSM delegate is **grounds for immediate dismissal and permanent exclusion from all pending and future participation in the council, as well as potential legal action** depending on the severity of the breach. " Seriously, if you’re going to talk smack about everything you know nothing about, you’re going to get muted for spamming. ---
**Author:** ![Xanthellus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xanthellus/32/253691_2.png) [@Xanthellus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xanthellus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/136 "2021-04-16T19:02:24Z")
I’m simply asking you who you are that you know of these amazing saves the CSM did, if no one within the CSM was allowed to speak on it. And how catastrophic those saves were, and for whom they were catastrophic. ---
**Author:** ![Jaiden\_Solo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jaiden_solo/32/511854_2.png) [@Jaiden\_Solo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jaiden_Solo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/137 "2021-04-16T19:05:26Z")
Evan McLean has my #1 vote this year ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/138 "2021-04-16T19:05:52Z")
I’m pretty sure the CSM helped get the minimum 5% market tax established for upwell structures. Aka, _The TTT Relief Act_. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/139 "2021-04-16T20:05:44Z")
> [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > In my opinion, the only reason you / Brisc are so vehemently defending the CSM is the ability to gether information about the game before it is released by CCP. > > Or why have Goons been trying to gain a foothold in the J-Space(An area where goons are as rare as a hooker who does it for free) for some time. > Long before the information about the industry update was published. > Coincidence ? Hardly likely. > > But this discussion leads nowhere. Of course it leads nowhere - all you’ve got here is baseless speculation and false accusations. Do us all a favor and stop making things up. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/140 "2021-04-16T20:29:45Z")
Brisc gave us a “disable sun glare option” and a toggle for the Red Dot. What more could you ask for in a single term? ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/141 "2021-04-16T21:32:14Z")
Thats true. Credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/142 "2021-04-16T21:47:22Z")
> [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > Now that you break into this space, will this patch be withdrawn? Why would it be withdrawn? Here’s the piece of the puzzle you’re missing: It’s not about us. It’s not about you. You know who else plays in J-space? Hilmar. It’s all about him. But, let’s move beyond that… > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > Give me (and others )any reason to vote. Why should I? The less of _you_ who vote, the more power _my_ vote has. > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > Give me a reason to read any CSM-16 comercial Again, why should I? I don’t _want_ you involved. > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > figure out what idea could suppot my playstyle. Kinda irrelevant, since the CSM doesn’t have the power to do _anything_. Anyone coming onto the CSM with an agenda and promises of ‘I will do XYZ’ is full of crap and has no idea what they’re talking about. The CSM can’t make changes. All they can do is talk to CCP devs and give their advice. In the end, the devs still decide what’s happening. One thing we’ve seen—and had documented—in the past is that the CSM is _only_ effective when they’re united. When all but one of the CSM tell CCP ‘this is a bad idea and here are all of the reasons why, including hundreds of pages of data and charts explaining it all out in painful detail’ and there’s _one guy_ saying ‘I have no idea what I’m talking about, but this sounds AWESOME’… CCP believes the one guy who validates what _they_ already want to do. Your playstyle? The CSM has nothing to do with it. The CSM can’t _support_ it. What you really want are CSMs who’ll talk to the players and figure out whether or not CCP’s intentions will _screw_ your playstyle, and then all come together to tell CCP to avoid doing that. Vote for 1 guy who won’t, and you undo the work of all the others. > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > Most importantly, give me a prove that the CSM has an active influence on PA and Eve Online. Well, since **PA** doesn’t dictate anything for EVE Online, you’re asking me to prove something that doesn’t exist. > [@Baatin\_Chaikai](#): > > And compress it into two lines. Why? You needed more than two lines to whine. ---
**Author:** ![Nolak\_Ataru](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nolak_ataru/32/258421_2.png) [@Nolak\_Ataru](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nolak_Ataru)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/143 "2021-04-16T22:05:34Z")
I also think he vastly over-estimates Goons ability to coordinate in a manner to not screw up a C5 cap escalation site… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598/144 "2021-04-16T22:07:08Z")
Our wormhole guys have no problem operating in any part of j-space they find themselves in. They’ve been doing it for a decade. They’re not dumb. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-16-all-you-need-to-know/305598.md?page=8)