# CSM 17 Summit Review **URL:** \ **Category:** Jita Park\ **Created:** [February 6, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529 "2023-02-06T02:42:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CowRocket\_Void](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cowrocket_void/32/189525_2.png) [@CowRocket\_Void](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/CowRocket_Void)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/227 "2023-03-02T18:14:15Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Since you cannot loot what you shot and cannot really drain the enemies reserves as he magically warps all their stockpile into safety If even 1% of assets dropped from a nul block keepstar the server would crap itself. We has issues with lag and getting into a wormhole that had a small number of folk’s stuff drop out of a fort. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/228 "2023-03-02T18:21:18Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > I don’t doubt that for a second. Unfortunately I believe that without removing asset safety, there is no real reason to see large scale wars any more and none of the big blocs can be broken by force. Since you cannot loot what you shot and cannot really drain the enemies reserves as he magically warps all their stockpile into safety… Large scale wars aren’t fought for loot. Almost invariably, the reasons the big groups go to war is far more personal. They aren’t in it to make money and the average line member isn’t likely to see much of that money anyway, except, perhaps, as SRP and that’s usually not a net positive for them. Removing asset safety would simply make everybody even more risk averse. I just don’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/229 "2023-03-02T18:29:23Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Large scale wars aren’t fought for loot. I didn’t say they are fought for loot. But the loot rewards the victor, weakens the loser and 50% of it goes to the lootfairy. Thats the essence of war. It is important that in a battle assets can be destroyed for the loser or looted for the winning side to shift power balance around. But maybe we are far far beyond this point already, because everyone at the top is already so absurdly rich that they didn’t even need loot any more. Then on the other side, why do they need asset safety to keep their stockpiles if they lose? Just make 50% dissappear randomly if you send items to asset safety, give the lootfairy her share. And if war is for more personal reaons, well, then it should be a lot more satisfying to know that your opponent _really really lost something_ when you blow up his structure (except he managed to have a proper evac plan). ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 6:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/230 "2023-03-02T18:40:14Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > I didn’t say they are fought for loot. But the loot rewards the victor, weakens the loser and 50% of it goes to the lootfairy. Thats the essence of war. It is important that in a battle assets can be destroyed for the loser or looted for the winning side to shift power balance around. /sigh The essence of war is crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and harvesting the salt in local and on reddit. The loot is near the bottom in terms of motivators, and like I said, it always goes to alliance, not to individuals. Now individuals get the benefits of it - SRP, infrastructure and the like - but that’s not what motivates the average line member to get into a fleet. They want to kill the bad guys. They want to win - and fortunately we have lots of ways to spin winning. All of this is psychological. You take away asset safety, it makes everybody more risk averse, it puts more pressure on the top guys to not ■■■■ up, only take fights they can win, etc. because they don’t want to pull a Vily and a couple trillion worth of their friends assets on their heads. It’s bad enough now with just committing things into a fight, it would be even worse if everything you deployed was likely never coming back, especially the near irreplaceable ■■■■. We’d just go back to the old days where everybody has to be tethered to an escape route to station, and that wasn’t really that much more fun than now. I hate that I’m arguing in favor of asset safety because I hate it as much as you do, but I just don’t see it’s removal as doing anything substantially positive. We’ve gone about as far as we can go with the abandoned mechanic. Folks who want the extra risk have Pochven and wormholes. Asset safety is too baked into the DNA of null now to withstand it being removed. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/231 "2023-03-02T19:20:26Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The essence of war is crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and harvesting the salt in local and on reddit. The loot is near the bottom in terms of motivators, and like I said, it always goes to alliance, not to individuals. Now individuals get the benefits of it - SRP, infrastructure and the like - but that’s not what motivates the average line member to get into a fleet. I don’t debate that. Thats all fine and I understand that. It just does not remove my point that the 50% destruction part of every loot drop is important to cut down accumulated wealth, which is incredibly important. Stuff must be destroyed, else it will stockpile to ungodly amounts and skeletize power that can never be broken again by uprising competition. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > All of this is psychological. You take away asset safety, it makes everybody more risk averse, it puts more pressure on the top guys to not ■■■■ up, only take fights they can win, etc. because they don’t want to pull a Vily and a couple trillion worth of their friends assets on their heads. It’s bad enough now with just committing things into a fight, it would be even worse if everything you deployed was likely never coming back, especially the near irreplaceable ■■■■. Well, we will not agree here. I keep hearing all day long here at the boards that everything you have in space “is already lost”, “you have to accept the fact that everything outside a NPC station can and will be destroyed”, that “nothing is safe in EVE” if the right guy knocks at your door. So its all bullcrap to poke the little guys then? But the big players get their magic safety beam instead? Pah. There is an easy solution if you are afraid to blow up trillions of ISK of your friends when ■■■■■■■ op an op: don’t stockpile trillions of ISK on a single station that you cannot defend and don’t fly into battle what you cannot replace. At least that is what _every_ small corp gets to hear if they lose their assets. So, nobody who _can_ lose trillions of ISK even deserve any safety net. Small people do. Tell me, please, be honest, how many Titans, Supercaps and Caps have the big alliances accumulated? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Its disgusting already and the game _desperately_ needs mechanics that _melt_ these stockpiles and the _best_ thing that could happen if these things are truly irreplaceable for at least another decade. Nothing better could happen to EVE than tomorrow a 1.000 titans, 5.000 supers and 10.000 dreads go up in flames.EVE needs a _true power shakeup_, to the core. More than anything else. And that is only achievable via destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/232 "2023-03-02T20:50:17Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > I don’t debate that. Thats all fine and I understand that. It just does not remove my point that the 50% destruction part of every loot drop is important to cut down accumulated wealth, which is incredibly important. Stuff must be destroyed, else it will stockpile to ungodly amounts and skeletize power that can never be broken again by uprising competition. Of course, nobody is arguing against stuff being destroyed when somebody brings it on grid. The issue is that folks don’t want the stuff they consider safe being blown up, especially if they don’t have agency over defending it, and which CCP promised years ago it would be. That’s why the asset proposals don’t really go anywhere. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Well, we will not agree here. I keep hearing all day long here at the boards that everything you have in space “is already lost”, “you have to accept the fact that everything outside a NPC station can and will be destroyed”, that “nothing is safe in EVE” if the right guy knocks at your door. So its all bullcrap to poke the little guys then? But the big players get their magic safety beam instead? Pah. There is an easy solution if you are afraid to blow up trillions of ISK of your friends when ■■■■■■■ op an op: don’t stockpile trillions of ISK on a single station that you cannot defend and don’t fly into battle what you cannot replace. At least that is what _every_ small corp gets to hear if they lose their assets. So, nobody who _can_ lose trillions of ISK even deserve any safety net. Small people do. Everything IN SPACE. Once you undock, sure, everything is just a killmail waiting to happen. But before that, when it’s in an NPC station, or when it’s in a citadel, there’s at least a minimum expectation that it’s going to stay there. This isn’t because of the big guys - as you noted, the big guys could give a ■■■■. They have plenty of money. It’s the smaller guys whose stuff has a significantly large value to them because they have less of it who are harmed the most. > [@Syzygium](#): > > Tell me, please, be honest, how many Titans, Supercaps and Caps have the big alliances accumulated? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Its disgusting already and the game _desperately_ needs mechanics that _melt_ these stockpiles and the _best_ thing that could happen if these things are truly irreplaceable for at least another decade. Nothing better could happen to EVE than tomorrow a 1.000 titans, 5.000 supers and 10.000 dreads go up in flames.EVE needs a _true power shakeup_, to the core. More than anything else. And that is only achievable via destruction. Thousands, sure. Why is that disgusting? The game HAS mechanics that cause these assets to be lost - they’re called wars. There is nothing intrinsically wrong, however, with the fact that large numbers of big ships exists. I’m less concerned with how many are lost as I am with giving the people who have them a reason to actually use them. Sure, it would be great if all those ships died tomorrow. But they better have died fighting with players actively enjoying the game while it happens, otherwise it’s a complete waste and of no value. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/233 "2023-03-03T12:12:26Z")
Hello Brisc, I am currently at work so I can’t reply much, but I wanted to quickly let you know that I really appreciate that you take your time to discuss these matters, even in disagreement for some parts. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/234 "2023-03-03T13:24:33Z")
The only thing that could extend EVEs lifetime was to expand it into different demographics, but CCP was unable to have their cake and eat it; the efforts to expand the demographics damaged the efforts to keep the current population, and thus CCP was cornered into the losing game if keeping diminishing returns from their same old same old. EVE is a solved puzzle. Go null or go away since eventually null is the only functional bloc which can -and does- squeak its wheels loud enough to have them greased whenever they need to. Nobody else can, and nobody else does get enough to outlast null since CCP is running a business and opposing null would doom the business. The only way to not lose the null game is to not play the null game, and everything else are just sideshows doomed to end sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/235 "2023-03-03T13:52:48Z")
You have a lot of opinions for someone who hasn’t played in five years. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/236 "2023-03-03T20:08:52Z")
…and wait until it’s been 10 years, I still will have opinions on EVE Online; likely my opinions on EVE Online will outlive the actual game. 🤷🏻‍♀️ The time i’ve spent away from the login screen (well, the launcher) doesn’t changes that CCP failed to retain the kind of players which still give money to Ultima Online (even if you could fit them all in a boat) and there’s a limit to how many players can you shed before a player run economy collapses. Pirates Of the Burning Seas was a small game and the collapse was as fast as a matter of months, whereas EVE Online has been losing players for 12 years and still retains a survivable population, which is a testament of how big the game was both in population and player dedication. The dedication remains, apparently, but the population will jsut keep shrinking as each cmale meets it final straw and new blood has got many more better places to be than a MMO leftover from a time when MMOs were a social thing in lieau of social networks. EVE Online it’s an amazing game. But CCP decided they could do without people like me (nor our money), so here I am handing money over to other companies and opinions to the uninterested crowds (well, small gangs) of a game I used to play. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/4X/d/4/c/d4c4c538f8f490350f9251e059690afe4c4acbbf.jpeg "The Sound Of Someone You Love Who's Going Away And It Doesn't Matter (2008 Digital Remaster)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-BrkEo8knM) ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/237 "2023-03-03T20:56:55Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > …and wait until it’s been 10 years, I still will have opinions on EVE Online; likely my opinions on EVE Online will outlive the actual game. 🤷🏻‍♀️ LOL, the game will still be here in another five years. Seriously, I do not know why you waste your time here. You have no idea how the game is now. So much has changed since you last played, it’s absurd, so your opinions don’t make a hell of a lot of sense. If you think the game is so amazing, do yourself a favor and take a month and play it again. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/238 "2023-03-03T22:47:41Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Of course, nobody is arguing against stuff being destroyed when somebody brings it on grid. The issue is that folks don’t want the stuff they consider safe being blown up, especially if they don’t have agency over defending it, and which CCP promised years ago it would be. That’s why the asset proposals don’t really go anywhere. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Everything IN SPACE. Once you undock, sure, everything is just a killmail waiting to happen. But before that, when it’s in an NPC station, or when it’s in a citadel, there’s at least a minimum expectation that it’s going to stay there. Okay, I understand that. I don’t really follow that concept because I lived in WHs for too long and simply know that the only one to blame for my losses is myself. If I lose too much assets from a blown up Citadel, it was my fault not to bring it out early enough, to stockpile too much and not to have enough evac capacities. But well, I still wonder what your reasons are not to like that concept? I _feel_ it is a bad way to solve the problem it actually solves at the moment, but ad hoc I can’t come up with a better solution either. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Thousands, sure. Why is that disgusting? The game HAS mechanics that cause these assets to be lost - they’re called wars. There is nothing intrinsically wrong, however, with the fact that large numbers of big ships exists. I’m less concerned with how many are lost as I am with giving the people who have them a reason to actually use them. > > Sure, it would be great if all those ships died tomorrow. But they better have died fighting with players actively enjoying the game while it happens, otherwise it’s a complete waste and of no value. Well, maybe I am just worried that the top players (alliances) have become so dominant (and even more when they are in agreement not to really touch each other, so they keep their place at the top), that no movement from uprising newcomers can ever fight their accumulated mountains of stockpiled ISK, resources, caps and supercaps. Which is in my eyes one of the main reasons why EVE cannot keep new players interested for long. At some point everyone realizes how the game works and _how much more reserves_ all those guys at the top have and that no matter how good you are and how hard you hit them, they simply won’t break, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/239 "2023-03-04T00:40:38Z")
> [@Syzygium](#): > > Well, maybe I am just worried that the top players (alliances) have become so dominant (and even more when they are in agreement not to really touch each other, so they keep their place at the top), that no movement from uprising newcomers can ever fight their accumulated mountains of stockpiled ISK, resources, caps and supercaps. They aren’t in agreement though. They fight each other all the time. TEST attacked Goons and failed, they lost space and are just in the Caldari Militia now and live under the shadow of Snuffed Out’s Hotdropping capability. One day, Goons will fall again. Note that I said AGAIN. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygium](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/syzygium/32/510263_2.png) [@Syzygium](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Syzygium)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/240 "2023-03-04T20:31:08Z")
Well, thanks for your correction. Maybe it’s just looking so bad from my perspective. Lets hope a lot of stuff gets blown up this next war, on all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Boags](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/boags/32/382554_2.png) [@Boags](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Boags)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/241 "2023-03-07T18:02:11Z")
Off set the chaos of that change with some banging sites etc to sweeten the deal. Or say 6mth from now assest safety is gone ---
**Author:** ![Boags](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/boags/32/382554_2.png) [@Boags](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Boags)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/242 "2023-03-07T18:10:46Z")
Your dead right there. Blocks wont hold stockpiles of caps that cant be evacd in the face of defeat. Make null even more profitable. But bin the assest safety completely ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/243 "2023-03-18T02:03:41Z")
Not to be a nag but any eta on the minutes? m ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/244 "2023-03-18T02:10:00Z")
I believe they are out with the teams for final vetting ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-17-summit-review/394529/245 "2023-06-16T02:10:22Z")
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