# CSM15 ONLY: What is your position on AFK Cloaking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [June 22, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611 "2020-06-22T02:25:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/61 "2020-07-03T14:15:04Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > Cloack have no counter =\> it’s a fact. cloack selfcounters by neutering ship that is using it unable to interact or get within 2km of anything. That is a fact. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > Make 66 day with a counter to cloack oh, I am all ears: what exact counter mechanism do You propose? > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > And remove local apparition for people from WH and filament is a nice thing to do if we remove perma cloack(unless they make any interaction with player/structure/NPC/asteroid). So it’s counterable and both side have risk, both side have reward. that is not halfbad idea. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > See i just breack you’re whole argumentation of perma cloack is mandatory and not risk aversse in one paragraph. You didn’t break anything tho - the whole point you have just reaffirmed that you wanted to abolish - is that you need a systemic change to local chat to be able to safely remove cloackies. And what your proposition in here does? lo and behold - creates systemic change to local chat. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/62 "2020-07-03T14:22:30Z")
> [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](#): > > > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > > > Cloack have no counter =\> it’s a fact. > > cloack selfcounters by neutering ship that is using it unable to interact or get within 2km of anything. That is a fact. And you just proof it’s not a counter, beacause to find a cloacky you need to parse the whole system in normal propulsion it will take years. Not a viable counter. All the problem of perma cloack is not the fact pve/miner/else could be risk adversse, the truth is cloack have no viable counter at the moment. They are just overpowered, a simple change could be very good for the game. And an other thing you forget: Goal of cloacky people is not to create content but destroy content. You could said no, the metrics don’t lie when an entire area is perma camped the population decrease. With a mechanic who people could counter you will have less people who rage quit beacause “break game”. I have see a lot of people leave game due to cloack since years and years. ---
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/63 "2020-07-03T14:31:51Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > And you just proof it’s not a counter, beacause to find a cloacky you need to parse the whole system in normal propulsion it will take years. Not a viable counter. He is unable to interact with anything if he wants to remain hidden, he also needs to stay away from places where he could get decloacked accidentally. You don’t need to find cloacky. As long as he stays cloaked he is literally no danger to you. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > All the problem of perma cloack is not the fact pve/miner/else could be risk adversse, the truth is cloack have no viable counter at the moment Cloaking device balances itself by removing ability to do anything while cloaked and having a sensor recalibration on all but blackops creating the time after decloaking where cloacky cannot hurt you. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > They are just overpowered, a simple change could be very good for the game. what “simple change” You have not proposed any “change” you are just demanding for a nerf of someone who dares to interrupt your farming by merely existing. And expecting that CCP will come to conclusion how to do it on their own. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > And an other thing you forget: Goal of cloacky people is not to create content but destroy content. The goal of cloaky campers is to bring uncertainity to krabbers and deny risk averse ones area to farm in peace. Farming ain’t “content”. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > You could said no, the metrics don’t lie when an entire area is perma camped the population decrease The population decrease, because krabs got so reliant on the perfectness of their freebie intel local machine, that they deem it easier to just move to the pace where it’s not dimmed by a false positive of that single guy who appears and never disappears from muh list > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > I have see a lot of people leave game due to cloack since years and years. I have seen much more people leaving because of getting bored to their guts with “content” that can be run afk, than you have probably seen quitting just because of existance of cloak. Assuming you actually do know any of such people, and are not making it straight up. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/64 "2020-07-03T14:44:28Z")
I will answer in french, use transltate beacause i must admit i don’t know english word for that. My apologies for that. But it semms you like to play with word in english so i could only answer in a language i m sure of what i will said an,d how it will be said. C’est de la mauvaise fois. Le fait d’être invisible est un avantage énorme sans contre partie. Un joueur pourras toujours devenir visible pour teleporter ses allié et c’est de la mauvaise fois totale de dire que a ce moment la c’est pas son invisibilité qui lui aura permis de faire cela. Bien au contraire ca fait partit du cycle de son mécanisme de jeu. Et c’est cette mauvaise fois qui tue le débat, car il ne peut y avoir de débat avec raison la ou règne le doctrinisme aveugle. Sorry for the paragraph in french if someone could translate it and conserve the expresison 'mauvaise fois" and the toanlity go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/65 "2020-07-03T15:06:09Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > Local is counter by perfect intell you have with eve map. Lolwut? How exactly does having more intel from the map counter the fact that local gives too much intel? > and perma cloacking have no counter actually No, but permanent cloaking also doesn’t accomplish anything. All it lets you do is sit idle in a safespot. To do anything useful you have to decloak, at which point there are lots of counters available. > remove cyno to all cloacky thing and we could speack of counter they with friend Or you could just have more friends. If the cloaked ship has 50 friends on the other end of a cyno why shouldn’t you have to have 50 friends of your own if you want to win? > In WH you do’nt have cyno who make you could insta vaporise opponent with no risk. You can’t do this in nullsec either. Dropping a fleet via cyno is a risky thing to do, as you are making a major commitment of forces in a situation where your target could easily have a superior fleet of their own and wipe out yours. Cyno attacks are only zero risk when used against farmer trash that has voluntarily forfeited their ability to fight back and declared themselves to be helpless perma-victims. > I have see a lot of people leave game due to cloack since years and years. What’s your point? Those people were losers and EVE is better off without them. Being too weak to succeed in EVE does not mean that CCP needs to make the game easier and give you free participation trophies. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/66 "2020-07-03T15:07:29Z")
i just need to repeat myself for each of you argument. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > C’est de la mauvaise fois. Le fait d’être invisible est un avantage énorme sans contre partie. Un joueur pourras toujours devenir visible pour teleporter ses allié et c’est de la mauvaise fois totale de dire que a ce moment la c’est pas son invisibilité qui lui aura permis de faire cela. Bien au contraire ca fait partit du cycle de son mécanisme de jeu. > Et c’est cette mauvaise fois qui tue le débat, car il ne peut y avoir de débat avec raison la ou règne le doctrinisme aveugle. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/67 "2020-07-03T15:12:43Z")
Sir, this thread is absolutely no different to any other thread about afk cloaking. It only _appears_ to be different because it’s created in the Assembly Hall … … and because the OP specifically tries to address the CSM. The CSM, though, as not been following the afk cloaker thread for all these years. They’re not as deep in this topic as all the people who have spent hundreds of posts in there. This thread is simply an attempt to side-step the main thread, plus an attempt to manipulate the CSM into believing it is a matter which requires some sort of fixing. There is _zero_ evidence that there is an actual issue. In the end there are _zero_ new arguments, all evidence required for a conclusion is already presented in _both_ afk cloaker threads, and the conclusion is clear. There has not been a new argument to be had in years, and there has not been a single _successfull_ argument been brought up either. This thread solely bases on the fears and needs of those who wish their environment to be risk free, who never have managed to bring up even a single successful and rational argument. The OP is literally trying to bypass the afk cloaky thread and the whole point of it, simply by trying to point at the CSM. It is, in the end, not an actual problem, but simply the illusion of a problem. Changes benefit those who deserve it the least. If AFK cloaking was a true problem, there’d be clear evidence of it on reddit and the forums alike. There isn’t, though, because it is not a true problem. It is simply an illusion created by a very loud, very dishonest minority of people, who keep crying loud and hard. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/68 "2020-07-03T15:26:41Z")
It’s a problem. You argue it’s not. Like wardec in empire for years… ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/69 "2020-07-03T15:27:31Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > It’s a problem. Only for people who don’t deserve to succeed in EVE. PS: you know that thing where nullsec is still the primary source of ISK and minerals in the EVE economy? Yeah, plenty of people are overcoming the threat of AFK cloaking just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/70 "2020-07-03T15:27:48Z")
It is a problem _for you_ … … because you’re a greedy carebear and potential RMTer. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/71 "2020-07-03T15:36:54Z")
You don’t have perma camper in each system. You don’t have metrics for WH mining. We need to compare all thing equal (so same population same player age, same quantity of SP) ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/72 "2020-07-03T15:40:43Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > You don’t have perma camper in each system. Then perhaps you should think about why this is the case. Could it be that some alliances are more vulnerable to AFK camping than others? Perhaps the victims of AFK camping should consider making themselves less of a target? > You don’t have metrics for WH mining. Why not? > We need to compare all thing equal (so same population same player age, same quantity of SP) Why? Player distribution isn’t uniform like that, why should we consider an imaginary world that has nothing to do with the real one? ---
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/73 "2020-07-03T15:43:44Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > I will answer in french, use transltate beacause i must admit i don’t know english word for that. My apologies for that. But it semms you like to play with word in english so i could only answer in a language i m sure of what i will said an,d how it will be said. Ok then, since you seem incapable of caving conversation in english language, let’s have it your way. Feel free to transalte this for yourself. Dwa główne problemy z tym co tutaj odstawiasz: 1. Nawołujesz że chcesz “kontrę do zakamuflowanych statków” twierdząc że jest to zmiana prosta ale nawet nie sugerując jaka to kontra miała by być, 2. Zaprzeczasz sam sobie bo z jednej strony twierdzisz że nie trzeba tykać czatu lokalnego by dodanie kontry do systemu kamuflażu nie wyeliminowało ostatniego czynniku ryzyka w nullsecu, a potem żeby “totalnie zniszczyć jednym paragrafem” swoją opozycje… sugerujesz zmianę do tego jak system czatu lokalnego obecnie działa. I have had a bit longer essay an all the issues of your posts in here but I decided that putting in here such wall of text in a language no one will understand would be extremely rude. So I have narrowed it down to approximately same amount of lines You have already cluttered with French. Also as rarely as I agree with Merin Ryskin they are completely right in their responses to You so far. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/74 "2020-07-03T15:50:07Z")
So you miss reead me. I don’t said you don’t need to change local i said blackout is bad beacause it kill game for terrible bad reasons. But yes it kill you’re narrative of people want just perfect safety. No people want to play and to play you need a counter to each gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/75 "2020-07-03T15:51:33Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > No people want to play and to play you need a counter to each gameplay. You have the ability to play. What you are demanding is the ability to farm even though you are too weak to defend your farming operations against PvP threats. Use the counters you already have and stop whining. ---
**Author:** ![Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/manweru_cemenotar/32/230368_2.png) [@Manweru\_Cemenotar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Manweru_Cemenotar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/76 "2020-07-03T15:58:16Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > So you misread me. I didn’t say you don’t need to change local I said that blackout is bad because it kills game(play?) for terribly bad reasons. > But yes it kills your narrative of people wanting just perfect safety. No, people want to play and to play you need a counter to each playstyle. I am bored, so I’ve decided to enjoy myself trying to fix that piece of crap to at least resemble proper english. No need to thank me. Also it does not "kill’ any “narrative” of mine. People that wants to play are playing, people that wants to krab, krab. and then there are people like You complaining about inexisting problems, making claims that are far from true state of the game and hoping that CCP will pander to your complaints. Here is a tiny bit of advice, that this game grew to success it was so far on: HTFU. Feel freeto google the meaning of it. Oh by the way, since you are all about countering playstyles - where is your thread demanding counters to N+1? that one is much bigger issue than cloacky afkers ever could hope to be ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/77 "2020-07-03T15:58:24Z")
Is there some poor CCP intern that has to go through the AFK cloaky thread, looking for wisdom? ---
**Author:** ![Derath\_Ellecon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/derath_ellecon/32/289725_2.png) [@Derath\_Ellecon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Derath_Ellecon)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/78 "2020-07-03T15:58:29Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > Cloack have no counter =\> it’s a fact. First off, where is the rule that everything has a counter? And cloaking is in a way it’s own counter. 1. you cannot interact with anything while cloaked 2. you cannot even get to close to anything while cloaked 3. you cannot enter or leave a system without dropping cloak 4. you cannot use any modules while cloaked. ---
**Author:** ![Dictateur\_Imperator](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dictateur_imperator/32/452018_2.png) [@Dictateur\_Imperator](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dictateur_Imperator)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/79 "2020-07-03T16:05:02Z")
Only if you do’nt take the whole cycle of perma cloacking. It’s why i have answer in french after we have some expression to design this kind of “forgiving”. And i don’t know the english translate, i will ask some french speacker later if they could help me to translate the expressions. Ho and perma cloack could interact… but it’s maybe a to hight level for you to think to that. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611/80 "2020-07-03T16:07:51Z")
> [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > Only if you do’nt take the whole cycle of perma cloacking. If you take the whole cycle then you also have to consider the risk of the entire cycle. If you decloak to do anything you can be shot and destroyed like any other ship. The only thing a cloaked ship can do without being countered is sit idle in a safespot all day. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm15-only-what-is-your-position-on-afk-cloaking/250611.md?page=5)