# \[December\] UPDATED: Jump Fuel and Jump Fatigue Cap changes **URL:** \ **Category:** Upcoming Features & Changes\ **Created:** [November 16, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710 "2017-11-16T14:33:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Frostys\_Virpio](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/frostys_virpio/32/12703_2.png) [@Frostys\_Virpio](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Frostys_Virpio)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/309 "2017-11-16T18:51:31Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > nerf people! Friends are OP. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/310 "2017-11-16T18:51:48Z")
Thinking the pvp experience in EVE is ‘utter trash’ doesn’t mean you hate PvP. It means you think the pvp experience in EVE is ‘utter trash’. For example: I think the PvP experience in all first-person shooters is utter trash. I still like pvp. ---
**Author:** ![theRaptor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theraptor/32/240185_2.png) [@theRaptor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/theRaptor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/311 "2017-11-16T18:53:07Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You were conflating two things to try to say this change hurts local production and small groups can’t manage ‘local production’ in part because of it. No. I said small groups can’t do self-sufficient local production (which you agree with) and that changes like this compound that issue to make small null groups undesirable destinations. CCP keep saying they want to encourage small null groups but pretty much every change to null makes it even worse for small groups. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/312 "2017-11-16T18:53:39Z")
> [@theRaptor](#): > > I didn’t. I haven’t even being playing this game for five years. > > If you mean “everyone else said that!”, nah they didn’t. As evidenced by the fact “everyone else” is in massive multi-corp alliances. Then you should take some time to educate yourself on the official position of the PanFam cluster of alliances for more than 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![theRaptor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theraptor/32/240185_2.png) [@theRaptor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/theRaptor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/313 "2017-11-16T18:55:30Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > So, you don’t know enough history to understand the rank hypocrisy of the whole idea. I think I understand now – thanks! [Yes, I unlocked another level of reply! I feel a sense of achievement that EA could only dream of.] I kept up with EVE news and have read up on old news articles since I’ve come back and the only groups I’ve seen complain about perma-blues are “elite PVP” groups. So once again we are back to you railing against the PL boogeyman. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/314 "2017-11-16T18:56:23Z")
> [@theRaptor](#): > > I kept up with EVE news and have read up on old news articles since I’ve come back and the only groups I’ve seen complain about perma-blues are “elite PVP” groups. So once again we are back to you railing against the PL boogeyman. It’s generally not a good idea to double down on one’s own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![theRaptor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theraptor/32/240185_2.png) [@theRaptor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/theRaptor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/315 "2017-11-16T18:57:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Then you should take some time to educate yourself on the official position of the PanFam cluster of alliances for more than 5 years. Some people in PL and NC. said they didn’t want so many blues it stifled content. The fact those corps are in alliances shows they don’t have a problem with the fundamental idea of blues, they were just quibbling about the degree. ---
**Author:** ![theRaptor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theraptor/32/240185_2.png) [@theRaptor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/theRaptor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/316 "2017-11-16T18:57:55Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > It’s generally not a good idea to double down on one’s own ignorance. Well you are certainly an expert on that. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/317 "2017-11-16T18:58:36Z")
> [@theRaptor](#): > > CCP keep saying they want to encourage small null groups but pretty much every change to null makes it even worse for small groups. That’s because CCP does want to encourage small null groups. However… hang on, lemme scroll up to find it… oh, hell, I’ll just generically quote myself from well over 100 different articles… “There is no mechanical change to the game that CCP can make that will not benefit larger, more organized groups better, short of an artificial ‘having more people in your alliance applies this penalty’ mod. This is because there is no problem in _all of human history_ that has not/cannot/will not be solved faster by the group that devotes more brainpower to the problem, and no solution that will not be implemented better by the group that devotes more manpower to that implementation.” This is literally _why society exists_: cooperative effort will always be more effective, and as long as the organizational wherewithal is present to manage the numbers, it will _always_ scale up at an exponential rate of effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/318 "2017-11-16T18:58:49Z")
Ladies and gentlemen, exhausted arguments. ---
**Author:** ![theRaptor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/theraptor/32/240185_2.png) [@theRaptor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/theRaptor)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/319 "2017-11-16T19:00:06Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen, exhausted arguments. Yeah you used yours up the second you went for “durr login more” and crying about what somebody in PL said years ago instead of talking about these changes. ---
**Author:** ![TrouserDeagle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/trouserdeagle/32/420239_2.png) [@TrouserDeagle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/TrouserDeagle)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/320 "2017-11-16T19:00:13Z")
how about reforming the jump mechanic itself to be less horrible rather than tweaking fuel usage and fatigue ---
**Author:** ![Bulky\_Tree](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bulky_tree/32/38594_2.png) [@Bulky\_Tree](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bulky_Tree)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/321 "2017-11-16T19:00:37Z")
I am absolutely with u that the Rorq came out of the shop broken and no amount of “fixes” will fix it. It needs a fundamental change. Interesting change about the drone ui. ---
**Author:** ![Merderer\_Asanari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merderer_asanari/32/38658_2.png) [@Merderer\_Asanari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merderer_Asanari)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/322 "2017-11-16T19:00:59Z")
Doubling the consumption of jump fuel drives is heavy handed. Why not 20, 40, 60% and adjust as appropriate? Heavily punishing capital pilots to stimulate the market of ice products is a serious disruption. Artificially creating more demand three weeks after a major change does not sound like a wise move. ---
**Author:** ![Bulky\_Tree](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/bulky_tree/32/38594_2.png) [@Bulky\_Tree](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Bulky_Tree)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/323 "2017-11-16T19:01:13Z")
Because they´ve read your posting?😛 ---
**Author:** ![Orontes\_Ovasi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/orontes_ovasi/32/439806_2.png) [@Orontes\_Ovasi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Orontes_Ovasi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/324 "2017-11-16T19:01:48Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > oh, hell, I’ll just generically quote myself from well over 100 different articles… > > “There is no mechanical change to the game that CCP can make that will not benefit larger, more organized groups better, short of an artificial ‘having more people in your alliance applies this penalty’ mod. This is because there is no problem in all of human history that has not/cannot/will not be solved faster by the group that devotes more brainpower to the problem, and no solution that will not be implemented better by the group that devotes more manpower to that implementation.” > > This is literally why society exists: cooperative effort will always be more effective, and as long as the organizational wherewithal is present to manage the numbers, it will always scale up at an exponential rate of effectiveness. 🤓 ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/325 "2017-11-16T19:01:59Z")
> [@theRaptor](#): > > Yeah you used yours up the second you went for “durr login more” and crying about what somebody in PL said years ago instead of talking about these changes. I mean, I’m not wrong. Everything we’ve built in Delve is not some unique anomaly – it can be recreated virtually anywhere in Eve with the application of effort and logging in. Since no one has bothered, I can naturally assume that the logging in portion is the problem. Delve certainly isn’t a thing due to a reserve of talent or intellect on our part – everyone knows that Goonswarm Federation is the least-capable alliance in Eve. Also, you’re the one who brought up PL. I’m not really sure why. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/326 "2017-11-16T19:02:43Z")
> [@theRaptor](#): > > Some people in PL and NC. said they didn’t want so many blues it stifled content. The fact those corps are in alliances shows they don’t have a problem with the fundamental idea of blues, they were just quibbling about the degree. MMmmno, it was more like ‘the leadership of both groups’ (and yes, PL is a decentralized ‘every man a king’ state, but I promise, when Elise and Grath put their feet down, they get their way, period). The fact that those corps are in alliances shows that even though they _do_ have a fundamental problem with the idea of blues, they’re willing to grit their teeth and piss and moan while they _do_ it in order to maintain a level of military parity. But, you know, perspective like that comes from consistent exposure over time. ---
**Author:** ![Daniel\_Westelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daniel_westelius/32/38660_2.png) [@Daniel\_Westelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daniel_Westelius)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/327 "2017-11-16T19:04:05Z")
@CCP_Fozzie can you elaborate on why CCP is focusing on irrelevant changes like the 20% reduction of maximum jump fatigue? I mean, I don’t recall seeing many, if any posts, asking for such a change. So can you provide any statistics to support the need for this change? i.e. how many people actually hit the maximum jump fatigue within a given time frame? This seems like another egregious waste of CCP employees’ time and effort, working on non-problems. Time and effort better spent working on tweaking jump fatigue accumulation or a number of different actual problems such as cloaky camping, which could be easily fixed by adding a timer to the cloaking device. Things like that that have been addressed for a decade by the player base with 0 effort on CCP’s side to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Jalon\_Kaladreel](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jalon_kaladreel/32/28660_2.png) [@Jalon\_Kaladreel](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jalon_Kaladreel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710/328 "2017-11-16T19:04:18Z")
I’m glad you are listening, but I think you are missing the point. Doubling the cost of JF runs is not healthy for your game. You need to sink that ice utilization from somewhere else, probably the new structures makes the most sense. Athanor fuel consumption feels quite cheap. You need to be concerned with making mobility cheap, not more expensive, otherwise you spawn a negative feedback loop. You _might_ not even need to tax it more. IF you do, and that’s still a big if in my brain, since things are still settling out, and will be for months, you should sink it from something OTHER than mobility. You think you do, but it might actually be healthier for your game, and your bottom line, to not! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/december-updated-jump-fuel-and-jump-fatigue-cap-changes/39710.md?page=17)