# Delete **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [December 16, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842 "2019-12-16T21:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Kell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lucas_kell/32/393556_2.png) [@Lucas\_Kell](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lucas_Kell)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/1 "2019-12-16T21:08:46Z")
(O\_o) ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2019, 11:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/2 "2019-12-16T23:00:52Z")
In what sense would they be “public”? Is there going to be a big bulletin board in-game that provides all of these and makes them “public”? Or is this another crybaby thread about a third party service that CCP doesn’t manage? ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/4 "2019-12-17T01:46:45Z")
Nope. If anything we need less intel and less obsessing over killboard stats. CCP should remove all API verification of kills and losses, making killboards purely a third-party service whose accuracy depends on the honesty of the people using it. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/5 "2019-12-17T02:20:51Z")
Exactly, killboards are for merry go round rides. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/6 "2019-12-17T02:44:53Z")
So a third party website not affiliated with CCP in any way allows players _that want to post their kills_ to do so there, and that makes you feel entitled to demand that CCP should make this mandatory for everyone, regardless of whether they want to post their kills or not? Really? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > This skews the data available and makes data nerds sad. And this is a CCP problem exactly why? Don’t be a data nerd then. Problem solved. Why do ALL players have to make their kills public, even if they don’t want to, just to make self-entitled data nerds happy? ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/7 "2019-12-17T04:55:00Z")
You’re calling that comment by scoots hostile? yowie wowie. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 10:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/9 "2019-12-17T10:13:05Z")
They kinda already are. The MER has included an anonymized summary of all killmails for a year or two now. I think it is only PvP kills, but it does include the group each player was in so you can already calculate the stats you want. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/11 "2019-12-17T11:14:37Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s already mandatory if those kills are part of a war. And the fact that CCP did this for wars _only_ when they could have done it for everyone doesn’t give you a hint? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You also have no control over someone else posting up a killmail link or exposing corporation killmails you are not seeking to expose. I have full control over whether I want to be member of a corp whose policies I don’t agree with, and it’s only the other party involved in the kill that may cause the kill to be posted if I don’t. You pretend that, _even if none of the two parties involved are willing to make the kill public_, you should still have access to it… And you wonder how that qualifies as self-entitlement… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > your only reason for being against it is that you don’t think I’m allowed to ask for it What? My reason for being against it is I don’t want anyone, me in particular, to have to make their kills public if they to don’t want to… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Why should they be private while many people don’t have that option for privacy? Who don’t have that option? Even if you’re at war, you still have that option for kills that aren’t part of the war. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Even more of a reason to just open them up then. That’s obviously _less_ of a reason, not more, because it reduces the “need” for the data that you pretend should be made public… ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/13 "2019-12-17T12:20:29Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > now it’s time for the rest to be rolled out. Because you want to have access to that data, even if the parties involved don’t want to make it public… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s not that simple Isn’t it? So how would you go about making my corp kills public if I’m unwilling to? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > 🤣 🤣 It’s not self-entitlement, it’s a feature request. > [@](#): > > **entitled** > believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment Exactly what you’re showing here. That’s not a mere “feature request”. That’s you pretending you’re entitled to have access to other players private data and asking for the change as a consequence of your self-entitlement… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Amusingly you’re demanding that killmails not be publicly released, and somehow don’t think that’s entitlement. Double standards much? Except I’m **not** demanding anything here. That would be self-entitlement on my part if killmails were _intended_ to be public info and then I demanded them to be private just because I want mine to be that way. Where is the double standard? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Then no killmails should be public. It shoule be impossible to expose a killmail publicly. No, and this is where it can be clearly seen who feels self-entitled here and who doesn’t. I don’t pretend that, just because I don’t want my kills to be made public, the other parties shouldn’t be allowed to do so _if they want to_. Nor do I pretend that I should be removed from the kill info if it ends up getting posted by someone else. **It’s only when nobody that has access to the kill wants to make it public that it shouldn’t be.** It’s only because of how self-entitled you are that you cannot see the BIG difference here… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Maybe you should just be better at PvP then you wouldn’t have to be so scared about everyone seeing your actual kill stats. ROFLMAO. That you think everybody cares about those stats and they’re the reason some players may not want to make their kills public says it all about you… 🤪 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Anyone with access to a killmail can share it. Exactly. _Anyone with access to it already_. Exactly my point. And not something I’m saying should be changed. That’s exactly why I’m saying you’re self-entitled, but I’m not… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > If you cared about privacy killmails would only show details of those who allowed them to be public and should just show question marks otherwise. What? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > It’s more of a reason because it shows that data is already available and the world hasn;t imploded. LOL. So according to your “reasoning” here, that’s a reason to make everybody’s private data about everything public, because hey, that data is already available in some aggregate statistical form and the world hasn’t imploded… Brilliant, really brilliant… 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 1:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/15 "2019-12-17T13:45:46Z")
A similar example of people having some of their data exposed without their consent is with tools like near2. A person or fleet’s location data is tracked and shared among what are probably enemy groups. Having access to all data, even with a delay, provides a lot of intel on potential targets. At least what they’re likely to fly, where, when, and what fitting can be narrowed down with a generally greater degree of accuracy. Put in the reverse, this is a request to deny people the ability to keep a secret, even if by rights nobody should know aside from those involved because nobody’s telling. It seems to qualify as asserting a preference over the preferences of others. Knowledge is power. What people don’t know can hurt them, and this is one of the tools players use to control their environment. Sometimes successfully, and sometimes unsuccessfully. In poker, is he bluffing, or does he really have the cards? Unless you force him to show his hand, you won’t know. Perfect intel serves to diminish or remove this type of dynamic from Eve. I use whatever tools are available to research my opponents, and that includes zKillboard, of course. I find that a measure of uncertainty keeps things interesting, and having to piece together a picture from multiple partial frames encourages my engagement. I recognize that people manipulate zKillboard stats. I just don’t think it’s a significant issue that needs addressing. If people want to brag, let them brag. The loud are easy to figure out. They’re broadcasting everything I want to know, after all. It’s the quiet ones I have to watch out for. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/17 "2019-12-17T14:43:50Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > some people have data exposed without their permission but others don’t You keep talking about this as if it worked differently for some players than it does for others… It doesn’t… It works exactly the same for everyone… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Maybe you should stop being so entitled and as the saying goes, HTFU. I should HTFU about what? About your proposal? You mean as if it was going to be implemented and I was asking for the change to be reverted or what? Don’t you see how ridiculous it is to ask someone to HTFU about something that only exists in your mind? 🤣 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Anyone in your corp can access a kill report then copy the external link to a killboard. Except I have full control over who is allowed in my corp and who isn’t. And over whether I want to join a corp that does this automatically. Not to mention players don’t go out of their way to find corp kills that weren’t posted in order to manually post them themselves… You cannot even imagine there are players that don’t care about those KB stats, and that killmails are just an intel tool for them, can you? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’m saying hat some kills are already public and that I see a positive impact and few negative impacts of opening that up. And that’s _your_ problem, your inability to see the negative impact of your proposal… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Amusingly, you’re claiming that you are deserving of the privilege of privacy of your kill mails that corps at war do not have. What’s amusing is that you keep talking about it as if some players have that “privilege” while others don’t, when that’s **not** the case. Members of corps that are at war have that “privilege” too. It’s only their war related kills that are public, all their other killmails have exactly the same privacy “privilege” as everyone else’s. It’s **not** that some players have a privacy “privilege” that others don’t, it’s that some _kind_ of kills are public while others aren’t. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > You’re demanding that you continue to have heightened privacy compared to a corp at war. Again, I’m not demanding anything. Pointing out how crappy and self-entitled your proposal is does not equate to “demanding”… And corps at war have the exact same level of privacy that corps not at war have _about everything not war related_… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > if you’re going to screech at me that me making a game suggestion is entitlement them I’m sure as hell going to call out your crying about it as entitlement. Yes, I’m going to keep calling you out for your self-entitlement, so please keep trying to make it look like I’m self-entitled too with some other inane “argument” of yours… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > So me wanting things to be equal is entitlement No. I already explained what makes you self-entitled. Your inability/unwillingness to read/understand it is your problem, not mine… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > and you wanting things to be unbalanced in your favour is not? LOL, what? What do I want to be unbalanced in my favour? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Go troll elsewhere Go post your crap elsewhere if you cannot deal with people showing your inability to argue properly. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I’m not going to continue having giant reply threads That sounds like the sensible thing for you to do, indeed, especially after having shown the quality of your “reasoning” already… > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > This misrepresentation needs to be put to bed. No major PvPers are gathering decent intel from killboards, this is simply a line used generally by mediocre PvPers to make themselves seem like they know what they are talking about. Locator agents give better data. ROFLMAO. 🤣 🤣 🤣 > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > by having the data skewed it puts people off caring about their position, and in turn off of PvP. What? Having kills not publicly available turns players off of PvP? How/why? Or WTF is it that you’re talking about here? > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > By exposing all data publicly a wide variety of comprehensive leaderboards could be developed which I honestly believe would encourage much more competition and much more content. Man, I’m starting to realise this is really difficult for you to grasp, but you really need to understand that EvE is a much more open game than you seem to believe and that for many players it’s not about leaderboards at all… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/18 "2019-12-17T14:55:18Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Even more of a reason to just open them up then. There is literally no reason to show all the kms. You wanting them for whatever reason, is not one. Otherwise CCP should make me get all your assets. You don’t get what KMs are. They are a service, made by CCP, to allow people compare their e-penis. They are literally designed with this goal in mind ; they historically were designed to help people validate the kills. That’s why you need the id and the hash, instead of just the id. I however agree that you have a point. People should be allowed in-game to make all their KM public, eg with an option. AND that should make them listable on a specific list in the ESI. with a list of KillID:hashid couples available for that person. Also the same at corporation/alliance level. But that should only be available as an opt-in mechanism. and maybe asking for people, in order to check if that is really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgeminer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/knowledgeminer/32/422883_2.png) [@Knowledgeminer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Knowledgeminer)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/20 "2019-12-17T16:56:46Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Knowledgeminer, I’m not reading all of that. Nobody cares. The only difference that would make is whether you’d be able to understand what’s wrong with your “reasoning”, which is your problem, not anyone else’s… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/22 "2019-12-17T17:23:56Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Why should it be opt-in? Because as I tryed to explain you, that’s how they were designed. The idea is that people **can** share their kills. I agree though that kills in a war should not be public . ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/24 "2019-12-17T17:32:57Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > and clearly the kill API has been designed to give out information without an opt-in bullsh¡t. The kill API has been designed with a private-by-default feature. You claiming they were designed with public access in mind, is factually wrong. Where you are right, is that the wards kills should also be private. Please make such a request instead. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/25 "2019-12-17T17:35:02Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > That’s the opposite direction to where CCP have been going. If they are going to remove all of their exposed data, I’d agree, but they aren’t in which case it seems better to have all of the data than some of it. And this trend is a bad thing. Intel should be gained by doing the hard work of researching, infiltrating a target corp, using covert ops alts, etc, not by looking up a nice convenient summary provided by CCP with guaranteed accuracy. If people want to engage in dick-measuring contests over third-party killboards that’s fine, but CCP should do absolutely nothing to support it or verify data. I’d love to see the entire concept of killboards devalued by a flood of fake kills and flame wars over who is lying about who. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/26 "2019-12-17T17:36:09Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > I believe that opening up kill data would also create content. {citation needed} How does it create content, as opposed to inane dick-measuring contests about killboard stats and players who are terrified of engaging in “fair” fights because it might hurt their K:D ratio? ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/28 "2019-12-17T17:45:10Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Only for certain types of kills. The hash requirement is what makes it private by default. You claiming that this hash does not make it a “private by design” is just pure BS. > [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Then why can I access any kill link without even signing into the API? You can’t. You just can’t. That’s just BS. if You don’t have the correct ID and the hash, you can’t access it at all. You are cherry picking. Just because people **can** access **some** killmails without logging in, does not mean that the kill api was designed with public access for all killmails. That is what makes it an opt-in feature. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/29 "2019-12-17T17:45:39Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Kill links are publicly available, anyone can post them if they can get their hands on one, Yes, but the issue is API verification. In the absence of API verification anyone can submit a fake kill report to a third-party killboard, just like anyone can post “LOL KILLED YOU” on the forums. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2019, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842/31 "2019-12-17T17:47:17Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > Why do you seem to want everyone to exist only in their little bubble and not actually engage with anyone? EVE is a PvP game and PvP should be encouraged. Why is a dick-measuring contest required for PvP? You engage in PvP with someone because you want to kill them and take their loot, win the war over their territory, claim the bounty placed on them by someone who wants revenge, etc. Killboards are the least interesting part of EVE PvP and actively _hinder_ content creation by making people afraid to engage and risk their K:D stats. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delete/206842.md?page=2)