# Delve, Goons and the MERs **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 26, 2017, 5:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496 "2017-12-26T05:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 9:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/41 "2017-12-27T09:51:57Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > So Goons have helped non-Goons get rich last month to the tune of 85.1 trillion ISK and for the last three months by an amount of 227 trillion ISK. That is, 85.1 trillion (or 227 trillion) ISK flowed out of Delve last month (the last 3 months) and into the wallets of mostly non-Goons. This was your claim, and you are the self-pronounced Goon economist. Explain/show us how you come to the conclusion that Goons have paid out 227trillion isk to “mostly” non-Goon/non-Delve player wallets in the last 3 months, which directly matches Delve (Goons) import value. (Inb4 half dozen wild alts appear and attempt to troll/misdirect/gish) ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/42 "2017-12-27T10:41:35Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > In Region One we have some guys who produce 100 ISK worth of raw inputs. Then along comes a Goon who pays those guys 100 ISK and combines the inputs into an in game item worth 150 ISK. Right? So far so Good? so the exchange balance will show 150ISK worth paid by goon when actually they only paid 100. People are not building themselve to avoid taxes ; they are building themselve to have a share in the margin. Also this is not specific to goon. If we have a new doctrine in ph, it’s sometimes better to build the stuff in Jita with dedicated alts and import it later than to import the raw materials. Hence why the materials cost is more expensie in our staging than in Jita When I do T2 manufacture I can do 40% margin… in Jita ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/43 "2017-12-27T11:00:14Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Also this is not specific to goon. If we have a new doctrine in ph, it’s sometimes better to build the stuff in Jita with dedicated alts and import it later than to import the raw materials. Hence why the materials cost is more expensie in our staging than in Jita This. It also simplifies logistics, as a factor of volume, protecting shipping, and utilizes where corp/alliance members have their alt resource gathering/manufacture points. Its cheaper/safer/efficient to buy/source raw materials in HS, process/manufacture them further there locally in your own facilities, and only then ship them “home” after that. Jita is so competitive and so vast in trade volume, that you will be hard pressed and require far more effort/time invested to find those goods elsewhere piecemeal, either cheaper or in the volume you need. That is why the whole universe sells/buys there. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > so the exchange balance will show 150ISK worth paid by goon when actually they only paid 100. Exactly. Teckos is conflating import value, with isk actually paid out. There is no rational explanation to how Goon’s isk payments to non-Goon/non-Delve players wallets can be equal to the Delve import value, as Teckos claimed. He has ignored that Goons themselves also source resources outside of Delve for eventual import to Delve and/or buy them off the markets elsewhere and further process them increasing their value by added value involved with the time of the production process, in their own facilities, outside Delve, before shipping to Delve. Goons arent stupid. Makes more sense to buy raw materials, manufacture/combine them yourself at no isk cost paid to anyone else, and then ship the resultant products into Delve for internal use. **The issue, as per OP, is how much isk are Goons actually spending in non-Delve markets. There is no rational way that the entirety of the 227trillion import rate, was all paid out to non-Goon/non-Delve players wallets.** * * * Id estimate the actual isk injection by Goons into non-Goon/non-Delve wallets to be ~25-30% of the import value to Delve. The rest being covered by Goon alts outside Delve (for later monetization in Delve per Goon purchase policies), by value added via manufacture/compression of raw materials into products before shipping, and particularly by T3 mats (which are simpler/cheaper to buy and ship from K-space, as sourced to K-space markets by non-Goons, than maintain a J-space presence sufficient to get all you want/need, much less to ship out of J-space to where you want them). Id further speculate a substantial portion of the isk Goons actually are paying out to non-Goons, as fills that import value, is for T3 mats (ie: from J-space sourcers), which are a pain in the ass for a Sov based org to source themselves. If those T3 goods are manufactured outside Delve before import, that alone would be a very substantial part of the import value to Delve. I cant speak to whether Goons have dedicated “day-tripper” fleets to run J-space content and bring back the T3 goods to the linked K-space Goon system. If they dont, they should consider it. * * * As I said in previous posts, the rate of import vs export indicates Goons are fortifying Delve, increasing cap production and most significantly, refitting/stockpiling for T2/T3 fleet doctrines. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/44 "2017-12-27T12:46:36Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Noting that trade is mutually beneficial for both parties … You have never been more wrong. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Trickle down is cutting taxes so that the wealthy become more wealthy with the idea that they’ll spend that wealth and thus improve things for those with lower incomes. That surely works well in the real world, lol. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Noting that trade, even between two low income individuals makes them both better off Wrong again. Okay, I’ll explain it once for you: People have to trade, in most cases their time, muscle fibers and brains in exchange for food, a home and something that helps them reproduce emotionally aka forget about the tristesse of the modern slavery, be it games, alcohol, holidays, a nice watch or whatever. They have to trade and they have to accept the conditions of the trade mostly set by the one who can economically strongarm them, with a few concessions in the forms of laws, which are meant to make sure the system of trade doesn’t destroy its own foundations, human life and the nature it lives in. Only a cynic could approve of your logic: people are better off trading, because they are already excluded from the natural wealth of this planet and from the products of their own work, so the only consequence for them not taking part in the trade in the role of the one who gets strongarmed, is that they die. Like, if you are blackmailed at gunpoint, you are better off doing what the gunman says. Better off. That’s how both sides are better off, in no other way. As I said, only a cynic could agree with you. Your ignorance is so impressive, I guess one day people will study this self-serving mindset (not yours specifically, but the people who write your opinion for you) and will have a hard time trying to understand why people were like this. They will argue wether it is a psychological issue or simply what happens if you put people in universities without having ever developed a personality. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Trying to misquote/misrepresent my words is a cheap tactic, Teckos. > > I know you use it to force a defensive posture and repetition Yeah, he makes a joke out of himself by doing so. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > With made up numbers. They don’t mean anything. Just like your made up claim in the opening post. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Nope. Because your grasp of economics is that of a pre-schooler does not change anything. You insult pre-schoolers while you are nothing but a half-wit fanboy of a certain school of economics also known as the people who don’t even understand the basic workings of the system the live in. I’m with the pre-schoolers, they could probably understand what you won’t. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > That you can’t understand the sometimes counter intuitive aspects of economics is not my problem. In other words, it is not your problem, if you don’t make any sense and he is calling you out for it. Shorter yet, you being wrong is not your problem. Why not? Because… > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Suppose Goons are buying maelstroms. … you can just come up with an example that does not answer the critique. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > PS: Just about all players/corps/alliances buys goods off the markets. You dont see people making threads claiming they are somehow benefitting everyone with isk/trade, or taking goods off the market. He needs it, let him be. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > In Region One we have some guys who produce 100 ISK worth of raw inputs. Then along comes a Goon who pays those guys 100 ISK and combines the inputs into an in game item worth 150 ISK. Right? So far so Good? Let me make that more readable: Region One: sources 100 ISK worth of raw input, for instance by mining Goon: Brings 100 ISK in ISK and buys it in Region One. There he combines it into an item wort 150 ISK. - No value in form of items has been moved over region-borders yet Goon: moves the 150 ISK worth of items cross the border into region two. - 150 ISK worth of stuff have been exported from One and Imported into Two. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > 100 + 50 = 150 and then 150 - 150 = 0. Region One has nothing to show for this. Right? But wait. Those guys…the dudes who produced the raw inputs they still have 100 ISK in their wallet. So…something is wrong. Here. > > Only 50 ISK must have left. > > And…only 50 ISK must have entered region Two. Your grasp of mathematics is gruesome. Please don’t do that again. 100 ISK entered and were exchanged for X. Time was used to turn X into Y, which could potentially later be sold for 150 ISK. Y leaves region One towards region Two. Nothing that counts as an import was brought to region One. Items worth 150 ISK left region One and entered region Two. Entity of region One ends up with 100 ISK in their wallet and Entity of region Two ends up with items that are considered to be worth 150 ISK. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Only 50 ISK must have left. You mix up ISK and items. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Because what left has to equal what flows into the next region 100 ISK left, 100 ISK entered. Full stop. Then exchange ISK for item X. Then time is invested to use game mechanics to turn X into Y, now worth more. Y leaves region One, Y enters region two. You are clouding your own mind by mixing up ISK and items worth ISK. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > BTW, if the import column “does not care how much ISK someone paid out,” the CCP Quant et. al. are double counting things and the MERs are simply worthless crap and you should ignore them. If you could read the explanations in the MER you will find that for imports/exports the estimated value of items is counted. If you have 7 Trillion in your wallet and leave from Region One to Region Two in your Venture… how much do you think does that count in terms of exports/imports in the MER? Right, exactly the estimated value of the Venture. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Explain/show us how you come to the conclusion that Goons have paid out 227trillion isk to “mostly” non-Goon/non-Delve player wallets in the last 3 months, which directly matches Delve (Goons) import value. He can’t, he just made it up. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Id estimate the actual isk injection by Goons into non-Goon/non-Delve wallets to be ~25-30% of the import value to Delve. Now you are making numbers up as well. Just say “I make up that the actual…” rather than “I estimate”. EVE 2 as a prequel to EVE? Is it a Jove game? ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/45 "2017-12-27T13:17:02Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Now you are making numbers up as well. Just say “I make up that the actual…” rather than “I estimate”. EVE 2 as a prequel to EVE? Is it a Jove game? To elaborate, I would speculate this as a figure that is equitable to Goons. Speculate=estimate, pretty much the same thing. If I was Goons, that is what I would be aiming at. Buy raw resources from non-Delve markets (especially T3 mats), manufacture/combine them outside of Delve in safer space, and then ship them into Delve with consequently smaller volume and easier shipment security. Logistics, logistics, logistics. Never not logistics. As I said also in a previous post, Goons almost never do anything irrational or without a long-term goal in mind, nor without profit to themselves. Goons arent dumping 277trillion into non-Goon pockets over 3 months. Perhaps a 1/4-1/3 of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/46 "2017-12-27T13:37:15Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > You have never been more wrong. If its not mutually beneficial then its not trade. The Opimum Wars were not trade, for example. I very much doubt the Chinese considered it a trade, no matter what the British said about the market. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/47 "2017-12-27T13:54:28Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > If its not mutually beneficial then its not trade. Mutual beneficence is not a concrete prerequisite of trade. A more accurate representation of trade, is two parties trying to screw the other over for a better benefit than the other, vs their own costs/needs. Thats how you make a (greater) profit. Basically, by lying and beating the other party down on their price. Cynical, I know, but true nonetheless. The best business(wo)men are also the best charlatans. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > The Opimum Wars were not trade Lets not go there. I can cite any number of other historical examples, with 20/20 hindsight, that refute the relevance of that as the example you chose as relevant to this discussion. We can discuss them, but they are out of the context of EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/48 "2017-12-27T13:57:18Z")
Willingly entering with the intent to screw the other over at any cost is not trade. Entering a contract by force is also not trade. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/49 "2017-12-27T14:02:32Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Willingly entering with the intent to screw the other over at any cost is not trade. It is. Thats how business works. Business is all about screwing over the other party. Thats why business(wo)men spend so much time, effort and money on entertaining their potential clients, inorder to sway them towards a less lucrative deal for them. Cynical? Yes. True? Yes. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Entering a contract by force is also not trade. Nobody can force you to trade in EVE. This isn’t the Opium Wars. Thats why I tried to warn you away from this extension. As cool as an Opium War situation in EVE would be, EVE just doesnt have that kind of context/capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/50 "2017-12-27T14:05:24Z")
Screwing over the competition is part of business. Screwing over your supplier is not. And EvE does have it. But its called the correct things like it is in real life; coercion, titheing, protection rackets and privateering. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/51 "2017-12-27T14:06:44Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Screwing over your supplier is not. That is a seminal part of business. The cheaper you can negotiate that price from suppliers, the better. They pay the rest, for market share and to retain you as a buyer, vs other suppliers. As a buyer, you just get the product cheaper, as negotiated. You dont give a damn how much it costs the supplier. If the supplier cant find another buyer to sell to at rates equal to what you where prepared to sell at, you are SOL. Business is not a friendly thing, either towards clients or suppliers. It just pretends to be, whereas beneath the veneer, it is utterly cut-throat. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/52 "2017-12-27T14:12:02Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You dont give a damn how much it costs the supplier. Exactly. You dont. So it doesnt matter to you if it screws him or benefits him. But he’s not going to want to do it if it doesnt benefit him, so is not going to enter willingly into a contract if it does not benefit him. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/53 "2017-12-27T14:14:01Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > But he’s not going to want to do it if it doesnt benefit him, so is not going to enter willingly into a contract if it does not benefit him. Business is not rape. Consent is not considered per that concept. This, however, does not change that conducting business is essentially screwing as many people, for as much benefit to yourself, as possible vs their benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/54 "2017-12-27T14:15:06Z")
And you just said previously that you didnt give a damn what effect it had on its supplier. Consent is required, otherwise its called theft. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/55 "2017-12-27T14:23:00Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > you just said previously that you didnt give a damn what effect it had on its supplier. No business(wo)man does, or should. Your job is to get what you need, as cheap as possible. If the supplier losses out, that’s their own problem. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Consent is required, otherwise its called theft. No deal/contract exists without consent. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/56 "2017-12-27T14:25:18Z")
Exactly. The outcome for the other is not a consideration, and the only consideration is the benefit the parties involved get out of it, and it is entered into willingly. That was how I was defining trade, as was Teckos. Someone else said that this was not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/57 "2017-12-27T14:29:26Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Someone else said that this was not the case. I said the case was trying to screw the other party out of their equity, as far as possible. A good supplier is one that can negotiate a higher price for their product, a good purchaser is one that can negotiate a lower price for their purchase. The entire system, when boiled down, is predicated on trying to screw the other guy out of money, for your own benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/58 "2017-12-27T14:30:32Z")
Yes, I know you did. It wasnt you I had been referring to, it was the person I replied to. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/59 "2017-12-27T14:32:49Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Yes, I know you did. It wasnt you I had been referring to, it was the person I replied to. Ok then. Anyways, this is wandering off topic. I responded to your post, as public, because I didnt agree with it. This isnt the Opium War, nor any exception to the essentially self-motivated negotiation between supplier and buyer. Still waiting on OPs (Teckos’) response to my post earlier: > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > So Goons have helped non-Goons get rich last month to the tune of 85.1 trillion ISK and for the last three months by an amount of 227 trillion ISK. That is, 85.1 trillion (or 227 trillion) ISK flowed out of Delve last month (the last 3 months) and into the wallets of mostly non-Goons. This was your claim, and you are the self-pronounced Goon economist. Explain/show us how you come to the conclusion that Goons have paid out 227trillion isk to “mostly” non-Goon/non-Delve player wallets in the last 3 months, which directly matches Delve (Goons) import value. (Inb4 half dozen wild alts appear and attempt to troll/misdirect/gish) ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496/60 "2017-12-27T16:58:59Z")
The economic illiteracy and stunning innumeracy in this thread is amazing. The confirmation bias is also impressive. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/delve-goons-and-the-mers/47496.md?page=4)