# Demand Justice and a Republic for All Matari! **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Tags:** roleplay, minmatar, live-event\ **Created:** [May 19, 2020, 5:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297 "2020-05-19T05:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/21 "2020-05-22T04:38:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Are they? Or is that the result of massive amounts of investment and effort on the part of House Ardishapur over the last 10 to 15 years? Does it matter? If you want prosperity and to follow the Amarr religion, is that not how it’s _supposed_ to work for them? Their precious Lord providing? Instead, they want to follow the Evil God and have my clan provide, which is not how any of this works, _at all_. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/22 "2020-05-22T12:02:19Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > If you want prosperity and to follow the Amarr religion, is that not how it’s _supposed_ to work for them? Their precious Lord providing? Sure, but if someone’s holding up the Mandate as ‘look, the Ammatar are doing well with that ‘claim divine right’ crap, why shouldn’t the faithful in the Republic expect to do as well?’ then it’s worth pointing out _the Ammatar_ didn’t do that, _Ardishapur_ did. They got their prosperity from others of the faith. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Instead, they want to follow the Evil God and have my clan provide, which is not how any of this works, _at all_ . Here’s the thing, though: while I totally agree that our ways and traditions bind us all together as much as ties of blood do, it’s also not that simple. I mean, yeah, adherence to the Amarr faith includes a loyalty to their god, but we’ve seen that there are plenty of people (Samira, for example) who believe in, and strive to be loyal to their god while rejecting the Empire as it exists right now. It’d be easy to say ‘then they can go to the Fed where cultural pluralism is a _thing_’, but if part of what we’re after is self-determination… we don’t get to be all ‘as long as you determine to be like my self’. That route leads to crap like the Shakorites are pretty clearly starting up again. It leads to ‘oh, you don’t believe in _our_ specific spiritual tradition? Then we’ll limit your opportunities and make you a second-class citizen… or worse’. And, y’know, last I checked, the Tribes don’t all have the exact same spiritual tradition. So if we’re demanding conformity, it’s only a matter of time before those differences become the thing being argued about. I don’t wanna be enslaved by the Brutor and Krusual any more than I do by the Amarr. I highly doubt they want to be enslaved by Sebiestor. It doesn’t matter how likely or unlikely that is _right now_, either. All that matters is that if we err on the side of exclusion, we’re setting ourselves up for that, down the road. Instead, we need to err on the side of inclusion, of saying ‘ok, you’re willing to follow the law, pay your taxes, and defend the Republic, you’re good’. Which then brings us to ‘should my clan help support them?’… and honestly, it’s not a zero-sum game. The more the wealthier clans help to develop and raise up disadvantaged communities, the more _demand_ there is in those communities, and thus, more economic driver for the economies of the wealthier clans. People _want_ stuff. Help them become able to get stuff, and they want **more** stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/23 "2020-05-22T12:13:46Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > if part of what we’re after is self-determination > [@Arrendis](#): > > the Tribes don’t all have the exact same spiritual tradition You got your answer right there, if you think about it a little. I am sure everyone has a variation of the following: _me and my sister against my cousin, me and my cousin against the tribesman, me and my tribesman against the outsider, me and the outsider against the Enemy_. While the saying is unnecessarily flippant about quarrels and fights, it gets the idea right. You are nothing alone. Self-determination without a group to use it for is _worth nothing_, as meaningless as the proverbial _loyalty not freely given_. What makes us Matari is not individualism, and neither it is conforming to _one_ whole. You do not have a right to a religion just because you wanna have that religion any more than you have a right to force yours on me. Your _clan_ has the right to live any which say they damned please - but only as long as you don’t make demands that mine should support it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/24 "2020-05-22T12:40:59Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Your _clan_ has the right to live any which say they damned please - but only as long as you don’t make demands that mine should support it. And I’m not saying they should be _demanding_ it. But… “_me and the outsider against the Enemy_”, you know? They shouldn’t _need_ to demand it. We should be doing it (and let’s face it, Stjörnauga may not be an overly large or particularly wealthy clan, but most of our members work in/for/around the RSS, so there’s definitely a case to be made for a degree of ‘influence’, even if that influence is—unlike me!—subtle or not often seen) because it makes _us_ stronger against the enemies who would destroy us. ---
**Author:** ![Gergoran\_Moussou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gergoran_moussou/32/381607_2.png) [@Gergoran\_Moussou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gergoran_Moussou)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/25 "2020-05-22T23:21:35Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Are they? Or is that the result of massive amounts of investment and effort on the part of House Ardishapur over the last 10 to 15 years? Well, I guess the Ardishapur philanthropy hasn’t gone unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![Johann\_Bererund](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/johann_bererund/32/218873_2.png) [@Johann\_Bererund](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Johann_Bererund)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/26 "2020-05-22T23:57:38Z")
> [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > One hundred and forty years ago, the Matari people threw off the shackles of an evil empire and declared that we would not be their slaves. We fought and struggled, and through great cost and great sacrifice, won freedom for ourselves. > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > So much was sacrificed, so many lives were lost, so much blood was spilled, but it was worth it to have a new home, to make a place that was safe from the slavery and oppression of the Amarr, to be able to shout **Never Again!** into the night with the strength and fury of a fleet of a thousand Ragnaroks and know that come what may **We Are Free!** To see this attitude expressed by so many Minmatar terrifies me. Yes, currently many of us enjoy some measure of protection from the Amarrian slavers. Untold numbers of our brethren have made the ultimate sacrifice, allowing us to reach this point. But we are not “safe.” Billions of our people still cower under the Amarrian whip. Only a few years ago, the mightiest fleet our Republic has ever assembled struck boldy into Ammarian space—and Jamyl Sarum anihilated it with a single shot. Today in Floseswin, helpless Minmatar civilians face Amarrian weapons of mass destruction on the ground and a ruthless 24th Imperial Crusade above the skies. “Never again” is terribly premature. In experience, population, and resources, the Republic is _nothing_ compared to the might of the Empire. If they have not yet ground us to dust, it is only because of our tenuous alliance with the Gallente Federation. We have not won the war. We are not likely to win the war. On this forum we capsuleers may see ourselves as immortal but not only is the Republic mortal, it is in critical condition. **The continued existence of the Minmatar people** is our only priority. Any sacrifice necessary to achieve this goal is a worthy one. If a policy of the Republic is alienating those who would contribute to our survival, that policy must be repealed, even if doing so hurts powerful, established groups. If, on the other hand, a policy of the Republic is protecting us from those who would undermine our survival, that policy must be upheld and enforced, no matter how cruel or unjust it may appear. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/27 "2020-05-23T02:13:07Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > But ancestral lands… honestly, there aren’t anywhere _near_ enough records of land ownership _or_ bloodlines to ever hope to resolve those, even if we were still only the size of 3 the populated star systems the Minmatar Empire held. I’m sure the University of Hedion would greatly appreciate the funding if someone did want to find those records. They could even call it diplomatic outreach. But really, an amusing thing about rapid population growth over hundreds of years is that it’s quite likely that _everyone_ making a claim on “Ancestral Lands” is to at least a small degree related to the person who held it before the Reclaiming. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 5:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/28 "2020-05-23T05:13:44Z")
> [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > I’m sure the University of Hedion would greatly appreciate the funding if someone did want to find those records. They could even call it diplomatic outreach. Who knows? That kind of offer might even do more to get trade sanctions lifted than doubling down on atrocity. It certainly wouldn’t stir up the ‘kill all Amarr’ sentiment the way Sarum seems obsessed with doing. > [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](#): > > But really, an amusing thing about rapid population growth over hundreds of years is that it’s quite likely that _everyone_ making a claim on “Ancestral Lands” is to at least a small degree related to the person who held it before the Reclaiming. Also, a good point, especially considering the way families and clans were often split up and shipped around to numerous Holdings for use in aggressive breeding programs. ---
**Author:** ![Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gaven_lok_ri/32/293159_2.png) [@Gaven\_Lok\_ri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gaven_Lok_ri)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 6:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/30 "2020-05-23T06:01:52Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Who knows? That kind of offer might even do more to get trade sanctions lifted than doubling down on atrocity. It certainly wouldn’t stir up the ‘kill all Amarr’ sentiment the way Sarum seems obsessed with doing. Given the likelyhood that such research would also expose prominent rebel clans as having been active collaborators with the Amarr authorities, I wouldn’t be sure it wouldn’t stir up some nasty sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/31 "2020-05-23T17:49:57Z")
Oh, _everything_ will stir up nasty sentiment. I was just saying it would be less likely to direct it all at _you_. ---
**Author:** ![Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantly_outraged_sebiestor/32/417519_2.png) [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantly_Outraged_Sebiestor)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/32 "2020-05-25T14:23:17Z")
So, I’ve had a little time to think some more, and there’s some things here that just seem a bit off. > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > many of our traditions have been lost or destroyed > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > those which have retained more of the old traditions and rituals > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > those who have had their traditions stripped from them and destroyed You know, what all this sounds like, is Gallente-sourced idealised Minmatar mythology. The Gallente have that whole “noble savage” stupid depiction of Minmatar traditions as something _fixed and unchanging_ that could only be _lost_. That places no value on the traditions of the _living_ and only values the traditions of the _dead_. Lots of people lost clan traditions in the Day of Darkness. Lots of people made _new_ traditions since the Liberation. You sure talk a lot about the old traditions that you lost, but you say nothing about your clans new traditions. So it sounds like a bunch of self-loathing Gallente-myth inspired talk, from someone who wishes they were someone else, living in some kind of pre-Darkness ideal that never existed. Which makes this statement more than a bit odd. > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > They will have to accept us as we are, not as they wish we are, and then, maybe, we can all begin to heal. How could “they” accept you as you are, when _you_ don’t accept yourself ? > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > We demand justice What you’re demanding sure looks like “Social Justice”, a Gallente-sourced ideology, coming from their concepts of “rights”, with no responsibilities associated. You’re demanding that other clans just give you their wealth, with absolutely no mention of what products, services, favours, or other things that your clans will provide in return. You’re not asking for a hand-up, you’re asking for a hand-out. > [@Saede\_Riordan](#): > > We will call for a radical redistribution of wealth from those clans who have grown fat on the wealth of the Republic Uh huh. See, I did a little bit of research. Turns out not that long ago, you were big into the Cartel, and fully bought into their ideology, until they bombed some Gallente city, and that was apparently the last straw, and you “renounced” the Cartel, but still felt proud to call Cartel members your “friends and allies”. An ex-Cartel member, who still associates with current Cartel members, demands a redistribution of wealth ? Sounds like a _lot_ of that wealth, if it _was_ “redistributed”, would be redistributed to the Cartel, and not to the people actually in need. See, that’s how the Cartel works. They undermine the legitimate authorities in Molden Heath, spin the narrative that the Republic doesn’t care for those people, and say “look, we care for you”, and supply them with the exact goods intended for the Heath by the Republic, that the Cartel stole. So, it sure looks suspicious. And then of course you have the thing where this “redistribution” would fall disproportionately on the honest Tribes, while the Krusual would find ways to hide the true value of their wealth, and thus giving the Krusual and their agenda a lot more influence in the Republic. You know, the Krusual Tribe, who associate with the Seykal Clan, and the Kruellefor Organisation, and act in favour of Shakor’s “Tribal Traditionalist” movement, against the Sebiestor Tribe and members of other Tribes that don’t buy into that whole thing? So if you’re _not_ legit, the Cartel get a bunch of the central Republic’s wealth, strengthening them, and weakening the Republic. And if you _are_ legit, the Krusual Tribe, the Seykal, the Kruellefor, gain influence and power, strengthening the “tribal traditionalist” movement that would certainly oppose any acceptance of the foreign religions, or non “trad” culture. Uh-huh. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhir/32/379234_2.png) [@Mizhir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhir)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/33 "2020-05-25T14:29:09Z")
Spot on. I couldn’t have put it better. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/34 "2020-05-25T21:45:51Z")
> [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](#): > > depiction of Minmatar traditions as something _fixed and unchanging_ that could only be _lost_ . That places no value on the traditions of the _living_ and only values the traditions of the _dead_ . To be fair, this is basically the default position of the entire Shakorite faction, and the push toward ‘traditional’ ways. It immediately condemns any ways we’ve _only_ spent the last two centuries living as ‘not traditional’, despite, you know, _two freakin’ centuries of tradition_. So, it really isn’t fair to call it ‘Gallente-sourced’. Plenty of _Minmatar_ groups feel that way, too… mostly the ones who didn’t adapt well and felt disadvantaged1 by the groups that _did_ forge ahead on new paths. Also, too, yes, I’m clearly still experimenting with new formatting ideas for footnotes. 😛 _1. Like, you know, the entire Shakorite movement._ ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/demand-justice-and-a-republic-for-all-matari/242297/35 "2020-08-23T21:45:53Z")
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