# Dev blog: CSM Winter Summit Minutes & changes to election process **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Created:** [February 8, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136 "2018-02-08T21:31:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Amarisen\_Gream](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amarisen_gream/32/296747_2.png) [@Amarisen\_Gream](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amarisen_Gream)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/183 "2018-02-11T00:41:42Z")
I asked for harder stuff to do in null. Like remove all that crap as we know it and give me sites that solo players could chip at, but would take an organized fleet to clear. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/184 "2018-02-11T00:55:15Z")
Well, first, may I suggest ‘don’t live in the drone regions’. That’s a good first step to getting better content in null. Second: we spend lots of times in organized fleets already. Most people in null don’t want to need organized fleets to be able to make their money, too. Third: go hit up a pirate Sotiyo. ---
**Author:** ![Amarisen\_Gream](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amarisen_gream/32/296747_2.png) [@Amarisen\_Gream](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amarisen_Gream)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/185 "2018-02-11T00:55:58Z")
I only recently moved to drone lands. Have to say, it is better than the last place I lived. I am also for less stuff that floods ISK into the game. The content I have proposed over the years all was for fleet and solo. Solo could clear the smaller stuff, while the fleets took care of the bigger stuff. These Rat ECs do not bring anything I a drop of what I have suggested to the playing field. Stuff I feel would work wonders in null-sec. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/186 "2018-02-11T00:59:06Z")
That’s because the last place you lived was Provi. If there’s any word that can’t be applied to Provi, it’s ‘organized’. Aski @Jin_taan. ---
**Author:** ![Trigori](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/trigori/32/53878_2.png) [@Trigori](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Trigori)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/187 "2018-02-11T01:06:24Z")
Its like you refuse to understand where the problem lies. Suicide ganking acts mearly as a roadblock and I have no issues with that, wardecs on the other hand currently can act a wall that cuts off certain player types from their content for a week or more. Some people just want to mine or do their mission or whatever other brain dead activity. The result is that they either jump the corp or stop logging in, both is extremely poisonous for player retention. Maybe eve is the wrong game for them, but the community is loosing players that could maybe oneday grow up to engage more with the rest of the player base and CCP is loosing real hard money over it. Having a watch list or better locate agents misses the point, since for casual pve players the most reasonable reaction to wardes is to just sit it out, esp if they have no assets at risk. Unless you give those players a reason to log in, like for example a way to actively end a wardec, they will just stay logged off. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/188 "2018-02-11T01:20:47Z")
I know people who have left the game due to suicide ganking, I also know new players who have left as they cannot mine without buying a ‘permit’ and constantly ganked, so your ok with a mechanic that effects player rention by not ok with another because your opinion is different from mine? Interesting… You cannot blame war decs for the sole reason that Eve Online isn’t growing, thats just bull and you know it. The game is becoming stale, hell even my own alliance was massively inactive due to everyone getting bored and what with all the new games who can be surprised that Eve Online struggles to keep people interested. Its not that I refuse, Its that its been noted many times that war decs are EASILY avoided, war dec’s arent the problem its the players that refuse to play, its the players who won’t log in and its the players who are stupid enough to fly 1b - 10b ships through high sec and its the players who don’t fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/189 "2018-02-11T01:22:59Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > You cannot blame war decs for the sole reason that Eve Online isn’t growing There is no one ‘sole reason’ that EVE Online isn’t growing (at least, not the way we’d like it to). So there’s no one sole fix. ---
**Author:** ![Luigi\_mon-de-sound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luigi_mon-de-sound/32/422750_2.png) [@Luigi\_mon-de-sound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luigi_mon-de-sound)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/190 "2018-02-11T01:26:13Z")
Don’t fight back??? That’s laughable, more than likely they will have third party logi that can’t be targeted to any fight. This can’t be countered by small corps. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/191 "2018-02-11T01:30:39Z")
Cyber Fight’r as an example is a solo player who has one alt that manages to kill our players, stop using excuses. Its laughable as no one will take point and target us, why can we be blamed for that? > [@Arrendis](#): > > There is no one ‘sole reason’ that EVE Online isn’t growing (at least, not the way we’d like it to). So there’s no one sole fix. Agreed, thats why im sick of seeing “War decs are killing player retention”, It may EFFECT it but so does many other issues. ---
**Author:** ![Amarisen\_Gream](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/amarisen_gream/32/296747_2.png) [@Amarisen\_Gream](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Amarisen_Gream)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/192 "2018-02-11T01:37:28Z")
Some of the things that stick out to me most: One: reading, writing and compression skills between different players is amazing. Two: small groups complain about blobs. Three: large groups complain just as much about blobs. Group A brought 2k players. Group B brought 2000+1 and so they spend 4-10 hrs in TiDi, then complain about not being able to log back on or any other number of things. So no matter what gets talked about. No matter what CCP does. Someone, in some group, is going to complain. Which then confuses the poor minds at CCP. I was having a discussion with an alliance mate. My feelings are CCP needs to give corporations and alliances better tools. If we had better tools we could… 1. let CCP stop trying to create an NPE. They keep trying and it sort of works. But most of the power in keeping people in game is helping them find a group. 2: work on creating tools for corp/alliance to content for members and not rely on CCP who seems to miss the mark. But over all. No matter what happens. People will complain. But I would much rather see more stuff given to corp/alliance to engage players than stuff from CCP to engage players. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/193 "2018-02-11T02:10:25Z")
> [@Amarisen\_Gream](#): > > So no matter what gets talked about. No matter what CCP does. Someone, in some group, is going to complain. Which then confuses the poor minds at CCP. It’s not ‘the poor minds at CCP’, it’s that no matter who CCP tries to please, _someone else_ will get mad because Person/Group B thinks what Person/Group A wants is exactly the thing that’s already killing the game, but worse! That’s actually a _good_ thing: it’s a reflection of just how many playstyles and choices EVE has room for… but it does make it a hell of a lot harder to build on anything without mountains of negative feedback. And they can’t just ignore it, put their heads down, and keep working, because of course… some of the feedback (most of it, even) is totally legit. And some of it will even be the people who wanted what CCP tried to do, but just didn’t want it _that way_. One of the biggest things CCP’s been able to glean from the empirical data they have, rather than the anecdotal stuff, is that players who make social connectins—even antagonistic ones—are more likely to keep playing. That’s why they’ve been working on mechanisms to bring people into contact, to give them opportunities to bounce off of one another and link up. I think the biggest stumbling block they run into is that when they present these things, they’re excited about what they intend, and present it in a way that wants everyone to be excited about it, but what other people are looking for is ‘what’s in it for _me_?’, and so they’re judging it in totally different ways. So the criticism pours in, and overwhelms things like the SISI feedback on RW. That’s what the CSM is supposed to prevent: cutting through the noise to present more signal. It’s just that there’s a structural impediment to how you get effective representation to collect and voice the concerns and opinions of people who aren’t involved in the larger community… or worse, people who haven’t started playing yet. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/194 "2018-02-11T03:00:54Z")
Hey, @CCP_Guard I fixed FOBs and RW for you guys > **[Fixing FOBs and RW](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/fixing-fobs-and-rw/55994)** > > Both FOBs and RW seem to have some problems attracting people. Both are very good content in some sense. I mean I do NPC miner hunting in FOB systems, love it. I tried FOB solo when it was still possible, I didn’t use droneboat and I didn’t succeed,... ---
**Author:** ![Ivory\_Harcourt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ivory_harcourt/32/368154_2.png) [@Ivory\_Harcourt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ivory_Harcourt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/195 "2018-02-11T03:50:24Z")
> [@Chan\_aar](#): > > Personally I think its that they don’t want to listen. Developing new AI / npc encounters looks good on your resume. Using someone else’s old tools to create content is not sexy development. Did you actually bother to read meeting minutes, or even thought for a second about it before you happily found your scapegoat for everything? I understand that now when you ■■■■ on devs you feel properly connected with the pack, but that’s not going to solve any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Ivory\_Harcourt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ivory_harcourt/32/368154_2.png) [@Ivory\_Harcourt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ivory_Harcourt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/196 "2018-02-11T03:52:43Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > Server population and individual subscription/accounts have started to decrease, most noticeably from people in HS. Is anywhere mentioned that there is proportionally (!) more players from highsec leaving the game? 80% of players live in HS, if less than 80% players who leave are/were from highsec then it’s not the main problem. ---
**Author:** ![Ivory\_Harcourt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ivory_harcourt/32/368154_2.png) [@Ivory\_Harcourt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ivory_Harcourt)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/197 "2018-02-11T04:05:31Z")
> [@Alderson\_Point](#): > > I remember feeling just how horrifically CCP was out of touch with the playerbase when they celebrated how many people died to the burner, when introduced, it was a deliberate trap, Each of those who were betrayed, hated it, and hated those who cheered in Iceland. That won’t be easily forgiven, trust is a rare commodity, CCP burned it and danced on the grave. Really? I didn’t even realise something like that existed. It might be a good idea to not try to act as a representative of all players. If CCP have burned the trust with you there, well thats between you and CCP; they lost my trust on something else, which you might shrug as something unimportant as it’s not your playstyle. This whole discussion is horrible, people absolutely refuse to acknowledge the existence of other groups and different playstyles, what the hell you want to agree on? That devs are baaaaaaaad, booo? They already significantly disappeared from reddit after that abuse they got there, do you want them to stop coming here as well? Just so that you can join your shitty pack of rabid dogs? This community is approaching the bottom very fast. The toxicity I see here I’ve never seen before, people absolutely retardedly blaming those who don’t really decide about the future, while proposing utterly ridiculous solutions to serve only their own interests (like that vmg guy complaining about mwd+cloak or disbanding corporations while being very silent about 50 neutral logis, jesuschrist). So before you start posting your next complaints and your hilarious solutions that would suit only you because you’ve never done anything else, please use at least two bloody braincells so that devs, GMs, ISDs and obviously ourselves don’t have to spend a time on something that has absolutely zero value. There you go, now your brainless pack can finally hate on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/198 "2018-02-11T04:25:46Z")
_suggestion that wardecs require structures_ Is the structure in the suggestion required by the aggressor or defender? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/199 "2018-02-11T05:11:50Z")
Tut tut that wasn’t a betrayal. Players asked for tougher rats and ccp delivered. They even described how tough they were going to be and their exact tactics. Players getting killed by burner rats was glorious. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/200 "2018-02-11T05:19:17Z")
> Is anywhere mentioned that there is proportionally (!) more players from highsec leaving the game? 80% of players live in HS, if less than 80% players who leave are/were from highsec then it’s not the main problem. That’s not how either math or logic works. Without dragging this particular issue out, if we use your numbers of 80% HS and 20% LS/NS, a loss of 100 people with only 75% of them coming from HS still results in 75 fewer accounts for CCP resulting from HS people leaving. You used the term “proportionally”, I used the term “noticeably”, a subtle but big difference. Anyway, the issue is not a single one, but more that CCP keeps trying and spending reduced dev power on fixes that large parts of the EVE community either didn’t ask for or trying to herd the players a certain direction despite years of feedback/failure for the certain new content to succeed. While I don’t mind CCP trying new things, spending their smaller dev capital on another reiteration of an already numeriously tried content failure seems to be asking for another failure. My main claim is that CCP does have all the data to make good decisions but, whether its upper management sticking their thumbs into the process or (based on Guard’s explanation) the devs themselves are interpreting it poorly, the strategic development of EVE has gotten worse over that last year. We want them to succeed at what they do; we just don’t like the most recent options for many of us being to keep doing the same stale things we like,do things we hate, or leave the game. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 7:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/201 "2018-02-11T07:55:58Z")
> [@Ivory\_Harcourt](#): > > This community is approaching the bottom very fast. The toxicity I see here I’ve never seen before, people absolutely retardedly blaming those who don’t really decide about the future, while proposing utterly ridiculous solutions to serve only their own interests (like that vmg guy complaining about mwd+cloak or disbanding corporations while being very silent about 50 neutral logis, jesuschrist). Neutral logistics has been covered to hell & back and I even agreed in a post above forcing them in corporation is a good idea, my intentions of pointing out players have enough ways to avoid war decs was not to complain but to educate people of the multiple problems we already have with our game style compared to say ganking. 50 neutral logistics? Really? Please point me towards this group… And implying people don’t do other stuff in this game is very small minded considering most players average 3 accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Alderson\_Point](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alderson_point/32/171891_2.png) [@Alderson\_Point](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alderson_Point)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 8:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136/202 "2018-02-11T08:41:10Z")
Nice rant, what on Earth has that got to do with anything I said ? (even though you picked a good quote) The glee CCP projected when people were initially massacred by the burner missions, coupled with the celebration of the losses of those encountering drifters (that was a little less obvious though) is a matter of historical record. Either they (incorrectly) believe that players enjoy dying enmasse to mechanics that are set up to encourage exactly that, or they enjoy the carnage. Neither is a good signal to give. And neither engenders trust. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136.md?page=9) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-csm-winter-summit-minutes-changes-to-election-process/56136.md?page=11)