# Dev blog: Moon mining revamped - There’s Ore in Them Thar Moons **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [July 19, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954 "2017-07-19T13:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/241 "2017-07-21T12:48:06Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > I mean a true ninja will enter hostile space and steal stuff whilst at risk of being spotted and engaged, having to wait until the belt is inside the refinery defence range means that the moon owner just needs an alt sat in control of the guns and goodbye non-ninja miner. > > Ed: The refinery owner also has the advantage that the crusticle is floating through space that they are supposed to control. You don’t want more targets in your space? FYI: Your whole “let me destroy the moon chunks of moons” idea is not a good place to spend dev time. Siphons prove this by the simple fact that barely anyone used them. Why waste a bunch of dev time on stuff whose only use is a talking point on a forum? ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/242 "2017-07-21T12:52:52Z")
I didn’t say I wanted to destroy them, I said I wanted people to be able to nibble bits off them. This would allow for crust theft, but would also create content for corp members in system to catch the thief/chase them off and then hoover up the ore chunk themself. It would probably need a limit on how much loose material could be fracked off the main chunk in transit to make sure the moon owner gets a guaranteed minimum in the belt, after that there should be some available those willing to go after it in transit. Who really believes that any moons with decent ore will not be controlled by large entities to such an extent that non-alliance member mining the belt will be possible (without renting the time in the belt)? ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/243 "2017-07-21T13:01:10Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > I didn’t say I wanted to destroy them, I said I wanted people to be able to nibble bits off them. This would allow for crust theft, but would also create content for corp members in system to catch the thief/chase them off and then hoover up the ore chunk themself. Or, you can just ninjamine the belt when it explodes normally. Achieve grid control and chow down. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/244 "2017-07-21T13:08:07Z")
Personally I’m having a hard time believing that anyone will expend the effort required to do this to then mine rocks. This also doesn’t address the issue that the little guy has no chance in hell of mining these belts. One alt on the refiinery guns means it’s a no-go. The siphon concept was to allow the little guy to sneak in and steal in the big guys off-times. Do we think the rocks spawned are going to last until alliance off-times? I very much doubt it. I’m simply proposing a mechanism that replicates the concept of the siphon, but actually puts players at risk whilst they steal the goodies. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/245 "2017-07-21T13:11:35Z")
The “little guy” isn’t guaranteed to be able to mine the rocks of someone else’s structure. There should be valid counterplay by the people who own the structure. If there’s not, then the “little guy” can’t own the structure in the first place. Try to think of it from the perspective of a person who actually wants to invest into infrastructure in space. I understand this may be anathema for you, as a vulture. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/246 "2017-07-21T13:12:43Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > “let me destroy the moon chunks of moons” idea is not a good place to spend dev time. With the announced mechanics ninja-mining will be pretty hard and that’s fine by me. But maybe it shouldn’t be announced as a perk then. Ninja-miners won’t be a big thing. Sabotage will also be potentially harder than killing miners right now. In addition to everything else, Miners will now have the support of their nearby structure. Upfront investment and risk will both rise too. The structure will be significantly more expensive than a basic POS, plus it has a vastly longer anchoring timer and is visible for everyone without any effort while anchoring. What does it mean: people who have wet dreams about small groups entering hostile territory and starting to mine either as a ninja or as their only little venture - you should wake up. This is not going to happen. It will be harder for you. Goonswarm Federation and groups like them are the only ones to profit from it, because they can provide the environment and streamlined processes to make it work in their favor. That is not the problem I see though: the problem is, that a good amount of conflict focussed players avoid the toxicity of large Null blocks with all their drama. These players will suffer in income and it means less PVP in the long run. - Edit: and everyone who feels inclined to cry out “adapt”, how about CCP nerfs Nullsec properly, starting with making AFK ratting _impossible_ by any means that need to be taken for it. Being a large power block in Null is significantly easier gameplay than anything else and it does not deserve to get more of everything: higher ticks, more minerals, better defendability etc. IF they’d even use it to constantly drive conflict on a large and meaningful scale, I might have another opinion, but who is doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/247 "2017-07-21T13:17:36Z")
AS a WH player investing in Infrastructure in space is the only way we have a home. The owner of the structure will have perfectly valid counterplay. They can see who is in system via local, they can keep an eye on the crusticle since they are supposed to control the space the moon chunk is in. Basically the owner has all the advantages, along with an increase in defensive capability for their mining fleets. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/248 "2017-07-21T13:18:48Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Goonswarm Federation and groups like them are the only ones to profit from it, because they can provide the environment and streamlined processes to make it work in their favor. > That is not the problem I see though: the problem is, that a good amount of conflict focussed players avoid the toxicity of large Null blocks with all their drama. These players will suffer in income and it means less PVP in the long run. Unfortunately for you, CCP is going hard in the paint here. Their broad goal, for the last several years, has been to erode the nomadic vulture gameplay style, and encourage empire building instead. Passive income is being eliminated as a result of this. Pure PVP groups are an intended casualty here, as their ability to drive retention in player groups is sharply limited, on account of their exclusive recruiting nature. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/249 "2017-07-21T13:23:07Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > The owner of the structure will have perfectly valid counterplay. No, there is no counterplay here. You’re describing a situation in which the structure haver must maintain perfect, 23/7 vigilance. This is not only untenable, it’s shitty gameplay. Nothing in Eve should require 23/7 vigilance – that’s why reinforcement timers exist. This is yet another post where people with no meaningful infrastructure in k-space want to impose disproportionate amounts of effort on the empire builders, because they’re unable or unwilling to put in the large amount of work needed to enjoy the nice things. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/250 "2017-07-21T13:24:03Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Edit: and everyone who feels inclined to cry out “adapt”, how about CCP nerfs Nullsec properly, starting with making AFK ratting impossible by any means that need to be taken for it. Being a large power block in Null is significantly easier gameplay than anything else and it does not deserve to get more of everything: higher ticks, more minerals, better defendability etc. IF they’d even use it to constantly drive conflict on a large and meaningful scale, I might have another opinion, but who is doing that? If it’s so easy, why are we the only people who do it? ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/251 "2017-07-21T13:34:24Z")
It wouldn’t require perfect vigilance as the moon owner would still get the lions share of the spoils no matter what. This would just allow others to sneak in and steal some of the pie in exactly the same manner as siphons were supposed to. Except this might actually be a viable method of doing so. I’ll skip the last paragraph of your reply as it doesn’t deserve a response. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/252 "2017-07-21T13:35:23Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > Goonswarm Federation and groups like them are the only ones to profit from it, because they can provide the environment and streamlined processes to make it work in their favor. > That is not the problem I see though: the problem is, that a good amount of conflict focussed players avoid the toxicity of large Null blocks with all their drama. These players will suffer in income and it means less PVP in the long run. > > Unfortunately for you, CCP is going hard in the paint here. Their broad goal, for the last several years, has been to erode the nomadic vulture gameplay style, and encourage empire building instead. Passive income is being eliminated as a result of this. Pure PVP groups are an intended casualty here, as their ability to drive retention in player groups is sharply limited, on account of their exclusive recruiting nature. I agree with the outcome, but I’m curious where CCP admitted this. Can you link a source? Looking at retention rates, I’m not sure that is a valid approach though. More or less pure PVP groups or let’s say: groups that don’t want to form their own little space-state, have been an important part of the game, creating a lot of the fun content and forming lasting relations between players. It is also the group where you find most people who are bitter about past decisions, being forced into corners. I don’t have a spy inside GSF so I couldn’t tell about the average number of online bees, but I’d guess it would average on around 5% of online players at any time. What proof is there that driving people towards creating empires actually works in terms of retention rates? Furthermore: “creating” empires implies it is something that EVE at the current moment even allows for. If anything it is consolidating existing players into existing empires, albeit with new names from time to time, leaving little to no space for truly exciting changes, thus feeling absolutetly stale for newer players, who have the choice between one or the other toxic groups to join or to piss off and leave the game. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/253 "2017-07-21T13:36:09Z")
> [@Querns](#): > > Edit: and everyone who feels inclined to cry out “adapt”, how about CCP nerfs Nullsec properly, starting with making AFK ratting impossible by any means that need to be taken for it. Being a large power block in Null is significantly easier gameplay than anything else and it does not deserve to get more of everything: higher ticks, more minerals, better defendability etc. IF they’d even use it to constantly drive conflict on a large and meaningful scale, I might have another opinion, but who is doing that? > > If it’s so easy, why are we the only people who do it? You are not the only ones as far as I know. Second: it is no fun for most people. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/254 "2017-07-21T13:37:14Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > It wouldn’t require perfect vigilance as the moon owner would still get the lions share of the spoils no matter what. This would just allow others to sneak in and steal some of the pie in exactly the same manner as siphons were supposed to. Except this might actually be a viable method of doing so. No, it would still require perfect vigilance to stop the ninjaminers. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/255 "2017-07-21T13:38:49Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Looking at retention rates, I’m not sure that is a valid approach though. More or less pure PVP groups or let’s say: groups that don’t want to form their own little space-state, have been an important part of the game, creating a lot of the fun content and forming lasting relations between players. It is also the group where you find most people who are bitter about past decisions, being forced into corners. False. “Pure” PVP groups drive “content” for themselves. They don’t do it outside of their incestuous enclaves. If they were the ones driving (ugh) “content,” why is everyone begging Goonswarm Federation to start a war? ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/256 "2017-07-21T13:41:43Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > You are not the only ones as far as I know. Second: it is no fun for most people. But if the rewards are so great, and it’s so easy, how could it be “no fun?” It seems like if that making a large nullsec power bloc was easy, everyone would do it, enjoy the rewards, then do whatever they want when they’d drank their fill. In reality, keeping a ship of our size (or larger) afloat and on the right course takes a tremendous amount of effort. Here’s a homework problem for you: calculate the amount of ISK required to pay for infrastructure hubs in Delve, along with an estimation of the total man-hours required to erect them. Include all relevant PVE ihub upgrades and the time to install them in your estimation. Don’t forget that many ihub upgrades require a JF or larger to install. ---
**Author:** ![Osa\_Engawa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/osa_engawa/32/212880_2.png) [@Osa\_Engawa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Osa_Engawa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/257 "2017-07-21T13:46:31Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > The owner of the structure will have perfectly valid counterplay. They can see who is in system via local, they can keep an eye on the crusticle since they are supposed to control the space the moon chunk is in. Basically the owner has all the advantages, along with an increase in defensive capability for their mining fleets. Why wouldn’t the owner just mine the crusticle themselves, at that point, possibly trading a little efficiency for a quicker harvest and keeping it out of the hands of others? ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/258 "2017-07-21T13:48:33Z")
They could, but then they would present targets outside of the defensive range of the refinery, puts them at more risk. The idea works both ways and rewards people taking a risk. The current mechanism propsed of only generating the belt once it’s inside defence range pretty much guarantees who is going to get to mine it. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/259 "2017-07-21T13:49:33Z")
I mean, if you want to mine a moon, put up your own refinery? ---
**Author:** ![Osa\_Engawa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/osa_engawa/32/212880_2.png) [@Osa\_Engawa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Osa_Engawa)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/260 "2017-07-21T13:51:42Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > They could, but then they would present targets outside of the defensive range of the refinery, puts them at more risk. The idea works both ways and rewards people taking a risk. The current mechanism propsed of only generating the belt once it’s inside defence range pretty much guarantees who is going to get to mine it. Not any moreso than when they harvest the field. They’re just going to drop on whoever messes with their mining operations anyway, I don’t think structure defenses are even very relevant here. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954.md?page=12) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954.md?page=14)