# Dev blog: Moon mining revamped - There’s Ore in Them Thar Moons **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [July 19, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954 "2017-07-19T13:19:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/381 "2017-07-21T21:20:06Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > But you fail to provide any argument why your group and the way it is organized should be mechanically finding advantages that others don’t. You try to convince people who have no idea about moon mining that they will have a chance to make dank isk - to try make them not see how they exactly won’t profit from it, but still become fanboys to support you making profits. Also understandable, why wouldn’t you. You don’t care about the good of the game as a whole, but only about your temporary advantage in it. Well… yeah… we are discussing on two completely different levels here man. The argument is that we’ve diversified our income away from moongoo. We are hardly unique or special in Eve; we play the same game as everyone else. More to the point, we’re not particularly capable or clever; if we can do it, so can the rest of you. In order for anyone other than a large, supercap-having group to profit from moons, the design needs to be active harvest. The way moons work today, only a handful of entities can play. Of course we’re going to rock the new system hard; but we’re only going to be able to do it in our little chunk of Eve thanks to Jump Fatigue. All the bogey men you’re shitting your pants about also have to abide by Jump Fatigue, and this provides room for folks with less might to actually get to play. You just have to undock. ---
**Author:** ![Rekindle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rekindle/32/382332_2.png) [@Rekindle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rekindle)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/382 "2017-07-21T21:54:50Z")
This change misses all marks and will do the same thing all your other changes in the last 3 years have done: empower bigger blocks. Your path towards killing the casual/passive aspects of moon mining will only take more content away from the small blocks and give more to the bigger ones. And seriously - you expect miners to sit there like bait all the time? ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/383 "2017-07-21T22:09:56Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > This change misses all marks and will do the same thing all your other changes in the last 3 years have done: empower bigger blocks. Your path towards killing the casual/passive aspects of moon mining will only take more content away from the small blocks and give more to the bigger ones. And seriously - you expect miners to sit there like bait all the time? I’m sure that the supercapital supremacy needed to keep and hold moons with the current design counts as “casual gameplay.” ---
**Author:** ![Rekindle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rekindle/32/382332_2.png) [@Rekindle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rekindle)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/384 "2017-07-21T22:21:28Z")
With that thinking hit the nail on the head. The current system appears flawed to the people who no longer actually play this game or have much insight as a casual player so let’s replace it with something that looks and feels like many of the other changes we’ve done in the last 2 years. Each of the major revamps they did solved few of the original problems they intended to resolve and left us progressively more entrenched in design elements that favor larger blocks more than the previous iteration. The question a lot of us asking is when will such flawed thinking stop and some fresh ideas emerge.? ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/385 "2017-07-21T22:27:04Z")
> [@Rekindle](#): > > With that thinking hit the nail on the head. The current system appears flawed to the people who no longer actually play this game or have much insight as a casual player so let’s replace it with something that looks and feels like many of the other changes we’ve done in the last 2 years. Each of the major revamps they did solved few of the original problems they intended to resolve and left us progressively more entrenched in design elements that favor larger blocks more than the previous iteration. The question a lot of us asking is when will such flawed thinking stop and some fresh ideas emerge.? So, as recently as six months ago, people were swearing up and down that passive moongoo mining was the only reason large blocs were as big as they were. Now, passive moongoo is apparently the only thing keeping the “little guy” afloat. How amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/386 "2017-07-21T22:45:08Z")
> Quince Ozuwara8h Querns > To be fair, they are definitely not the only ones doing it - It’s just that the GSF does it better than anyone else. They do it better than anyone else because they have spent years working out the most risk averse ways to do things. The old CFC motto comes to mind here - “We aren’t out the wreck THE game, just your’s” - Which they manage to do on a grander scale than CCP are prepared to acknowledge (or attempt to curtail). NB; The motto now is - Risk aversion at all costs… * * * If you want to line your wallet while not being at risk - Create an alt and put it in a GSF corp, there are still a few who will take anyone that can breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/387 "2017-07-21T22:50:59Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > The old CFC motto comes to mind here - “We aren’t out the wreck THE game, just your’s” The game of telephone continues. Fun fact: That’s a thing Darius Johnson said, and it referred to Goons in particular, not any coalition. Darius Johnson wasn’t involved with the “CFC” at all. Also, it’s adorable that you continue to call it the “CFC.” Screaming “IT’S CONSTANTINOPLE” until your vocal chords become bloody shredded beef won’t make the people of Istanbul agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/388 "2017-07-21T23:26:19Z")
Actually I don’t call it anything - The ONLY time I ever think about Goons is when we are dropping on their one man Rorqual blobs. Fun fact - That’s actually true; You might want to take a second and look before you commit to posting - [https://evewho.com/pilot/Darius+JOHNSON](https://evewho.com/pilot/Darius+JOHNSON) - If that isn’t “part of the CFC” no-one was ever a part of it. From memory, he was in GoonWaffe (for the 2nd time) when he coined the phrase… ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/389 "2017-07-21T23:27:39Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Oh and you might want to take a second and look before you commit to posting - [https://evewho.com/pilot/Darius+JOHNSON](https://evewho.com/pilot/Darius+JOHNSON) - If that isn’t “part of the CFC” no-one was ever a part of it. From memory, he was in GoonWaffe (for the 2nd time) when he coined the phrase… The man took his job at CCP in 2010. The ■■■■■■■■■■■ Coalition didn’t become a thing until 2011. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Garen\_Lemmont](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garen_lemmont/32/170771_2.png) [@Garen\_Lemmont](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Garen_Lemmont)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/390 "2017-07-21T23:29:41Z")
@CCP_Lebowski moon mining changes, very interesting! My question concerns moon chunk field position. If I establish a (example) 7 day spawn period, will the moon chunk field that is created every 7 days always appear in the same (roundabout) location with respect to the puller structure? If so, will there be any game mechanic preventing the anchoring of something… like an astrahus, so the field spawn is directly on top of it? (obv assuming a stand-off distance from the refinery moon chunk puller ray structure) Just noodling on strategies I would use to mitigate loss if I was an owner or to bait others if I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/391 "2017-07-21T23:34:52Z")
> Querns > The man took his job at CCP in 2010. The ■■■■■■■■■■■ Coalition didn’t become a thing until 2011. > Try again. My bad… It must have been his 3rd time. Someone who belonged to Goon corps for pretty much the duration of the CFC (and his playing career), I would consider them a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/392 "2017-07-21T23:37:32Z")
> [@Sgt\_Ocker](#): > > Someone who belonged to Goon corps for pretty much the duration of the CFC (and his playing career), I would consider them a part of it. You’d be wrong, then. He had nothing to do with the CFC or the Imperium at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sgt\_Ocker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sgt_ocker/32/270881_2.png) [@Sgt\_Ocker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sgt_Ocker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/393 "2017-07-21T23:44:37Z")
Not sure how you think this might work but I can’t see any group who has a moon just sitting back while someone else anchors a citadel on their grid. Would be interesting to see if it could be done what the outcome would be. I imagine it would be destroyed quite quickly. As for where the chunk appears, my guess it would be pretty much in the same place each time as it needs to end up in the same place every time. They will basically be a static belt, the only variable being when it will appear, not where. ---
**Author:** ![Rivr\_Luzade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rivr_luzade/32/311061_2.png) [@Rivr\_Luzade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rivr_Luzade)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 5:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/394 "2017-07-22T05:48:43Z")
Only for the first time and definitely not on the new money moons. Mining the moon asteroid field also shows up on the map, and very likely in systems that weren’t mined before (except for Delve, probably), which means it is also easy to track after the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Coralas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/coralas/32/11762_2.png) [@Coralas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Coralas)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 10:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/395 "2017-07-22T10:23:22Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > > [@Frostys\_Virpio](#): > > > > As much as I kind of want it on a personal level, I don’t think CCP will really do anything about afk ratting anytime soon because of the subs they generate just like SP farming. If they did, it would be announced and I am sure the GSF money team would start making prediction and plans for various end scenario to ride the storm and then announce changes within the alliance to keep going while this is getting nerfed. Right now, it’s moon-goo that get’s the “no more absentee income” kick in the balls so they made plans around that situation. > > Hey, my point was never that I think Goons income specifically should be nerfed to a point that would question their existance as an Alliance. In general Null vs. Non-Null is imbalanced in terms of risk and reward. The moon changes make this worse, not better. The goo was in null and low before, and its in null and low now, and now it requires spaceships to go get it. I can’t see how thats less risk. The only thing that changed is that where once 1 player with a cyno alt account and a jumpfreighter could service 100 towers in a month, it will actually be done by lots of players now. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/396 "2017-07-22T10:28:26Z")
Or by many many cheap mining alts, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. ---
**Author:** ![Coralas](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/coralas/32/11762_2.png) [@Coralas](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Coralas)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 10:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/397 "2017-07-22T10:35:11Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > > [@Querns](#): > > > > You know that a person has run out of arguments when they bring up the “this group is toxic, therefore what they have to say is wrong” bit, FYI. Probably a good time to pack it in. > > Never said this is the reason you are wrong. I provided arguments for a) why Ninja-mining won’t be a thing, b) why small-time guys won’t profit from this change and c) why Lowsec is nerfed and d) Nullsec is not. > > You talked so overly proud about “your” Alliance that I had to remember line-members telling me about the toxic atmosphere. It was to remind you that you are speaking about your perspective from inside the leadership, not the line-member. > > You didn’t present any argument, why the specific new mechanics will be good for anyone other than yourself. I’m living with a group that holds exactly 1 null system right now. Its been camped all day by a snuffed related character (one that is used to drop them). So what I did was go run a whole constellation of relics and datas (200m) and a paramilitary I spotted whilst hacking (300m) for a nice half bil on a camped day. I expect when this patch hits to install 3 or so refineries, and I expect to trigger them all for roughly the same time, so that if we are camped by an entity that can drop major numbers on our heads, we can just keep moving around and force the camper to either follow or show themselves as afk. That means for a ninja miner, there should be fields that are popped, but are not being worked, and there should be fields guarded by cloakies who are not interested in you, but are interested in the owners. The fact that you mightn’t be able to force a ninja mining effort whilst the structure owner is there is completely expected, normal and desired. Honestly wtf. ---
**Author:** ![Zetakya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zetakya/32/169095_2.png) [@Zetakya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zetakya)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/398 "2017-07-22T11:00:04Z")
Ok, so I’ve just skimmed past 100 posts of “grr gons, hat gons”, and I have some observations to make: 1. The Mining meta in respect of Moon fields is currently largely unknown. However, we have the following statement from CCP in the initial Dev Blog: > [@](#): > > Since the time between events will be fairly long, we are expecting this group mining event to be a special high-value occasional event where your corp’s usual miners can turn their attention away from their normal belts and clusters for a few hours and players who only mine once in a while can pull out their barges and join in. In many ways these events will be like mining incursions that are partly controllable by the structure owner. The income from mining these asteroids will of course vary based on market forces and demand for different moon materials, but we expect mining the fields generated by good moons to be very valuable with higher isk/m3 than the high-end ABC (Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite) ores. This indicates the expectation that ISK/M³ (& therefore ISK/hour) will exceed ABG Mining in Anomalies. What we currently don’t know is if there will be restrictions on mining typology, either hard coded (per Mercoxit), or effective by rock size. If the rocks are extremely valuable by m³ but of a size that is too small for effective Rorqual Mining, that will enforce a different Meta than a Rorqual-Mining paradise spawned on demand. 1. The presence of regular Ores in Moon fields will have an effect upon the viability of LowSec and NPC NullSec industry. Both zones could see increased industrial player activity if those resident in those areas choose to go that route. So it’s not all about Moon Goo - expect Moons with large volumes of valuable regular Ores to also be valuable, especially in those regions without Ore Anomalies. 2. The viability of ninja mining will depend to a large extent on the ISK/m³ of the Moon Goo Ore and their prevalence in the Ore Field. If we assume that CCP will want to encourage active Ninja Mining as a replacement for Siphoning, then ISK/m³ would need to be high enough for the Prospect to satisfy a RoI analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Querns](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/querns/32/157529_2.png) [@Querns](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Querns)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/399 "2017-07-22T11:50:05Z")
> [@Rivr\_Luzade](#): > > Only for the first time and definitely not on the new money moons. Mining the moon asteroid field also shows up on the map, and very likely in systems that weren’t mined before (except for Delve, probably), which means it is also easy to track after the first time. Interactions with mining development index only occurs in sov null, and with a month between moongoo belts, an index not encumbered by traditional mining will decay completely. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954/400 "2017-07-22T11:53:36Z")
Agreed, three more things though: 1. Currently you get 100 Units of Moongoo per hourly cycle and the entire things is so perfectly plannable, that you can break down every T2 product into Pos cycles. It will be interesting to see if the amount of Goo through Ore will be equally plannable and about the same amount of Goo per fracking hour as now with MHAs. Any major change in the monthly output will lead to: 2. How many Refineries will you need in comparison to POSes to get the same amount of Goo. Refineries are going to be a higher upfront investment, while it is currently unclear (afaik) how much fuel will be needed for both fracking and running reactions. 3. Grr Goo, not Grr Goons Nah, you’re right, we got a tad side-tracked there. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-moon-mining-revamped-there-s-ore-in-them-thar-moons/10954.md?page=21)