# Dev blog: Upwell 2.0 - Structures Changes Coming On February 13th! **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [January 18, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885 "2018-01-18T17:34:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/224 "2018-01-20T07:42:07Z")
> [@Zoltan\_Lazar](#): > > If you can’t defend a structure in a wormhole go back to kspace. If you want to stay small, k-space offers nothing worthwhile. Highsec = Get harassed and/or ganked constantly by folks hiding in NPC corps… and it’s really damn boring. Lowsec = It’s mostly empty or you get blobbed — choose one. Nullsec = Get (easily) destroyed by anyone/everyone, otherwise join an alliance which negates “staying small”. Wormholes gave an opportunity to PvE, PvP and stay in small groups. WH is already getting quiet with the reduction of active players and this certainly won’t help. WH’s currently offer a very real risk v reward of major eviction groups, but these changes hands a significant advantage to those large groups that small groups can’t defend against in any space. What you’re essentially saying is “Join a large group or get \*\*\*\*ed”. Sorry, but I’m not going to join a large alliance. Been there, done that. I’m not going to pay a subscription for the privilege to have a second job. ---
**Author:** ![Obil\_Que](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/obil_que/32/171329_2.png) [@Obil\_Que](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Obil_Que)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/225 "2018-01-20T07:49:04Z")
Or maybe don’t be one of a hundred tiny w-space corps complaining they can’t fight back against anything. Join up with other smaller w-space corps to at least be a size where if you don’t log on every day someone else does and you’re not living in fear of your structures dying while you’re offline. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/226 "2018-01-20T07:51:50Z")
> [@Obil\_Que](#): > > Low-power Ctiadels are the very definition of spam There aren’t any service modules worth having in a WH. The clone service is useless. Between the lack of asset safety, the logistical headache, and the ease of eviction to smaller groups (even easier now), you’d need to be insane to do any meaningful industry. Maybe if we could set a WH citadel to a home station, that would give it a reason to have an active service? ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/227 "2018-01-20T08:11:05Z")
> [@Obil\_Que](#): > > Join up with other smaller w-space corps to at least be a size where if you don’t log on every day someone else does and you’re not living in fear of your structures dying while you’re offline. You seem to have missed the point of wanting to maintain a small group. Also, losing structures in WH’s is a part of the risk v reward and 3 days is already drastically short compared to k-space. 3 days is barely enough for an evacuation even if you log in daily, and now that time is being reduced even more. Losing ■■■■ is a part of EvE, but now if you don’t log in daily, you’re pretty much screwed. Upwell’s and the elimination of POS’s has accomplished one thing incredibly well, and that’s disenfranchising smaller groups that have no desire to join large groups. Your solution appears to be exactly as I said, “get bigger or leave”. I’ll take the latter long before the former. ---
**Author:** ![Pleasure\_Hub\_Node-514](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pleasure_hub_node-514/32/381326_2.png) [@Pleasure\_Hub\_Node-514](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pleasure_Hub_Node-514)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/228 "2018-01-20T08:12:45Z")
The Standup Moon Drill only needs 5 units of fuel per cycle–half of what a clone bay or hyasyoda research facility require. You could also always work out a renter deal where you provide fuel and percentage of ore from moon mining in return for having an Athanor with an armor timer. ---
**Author:** ![Zoltan\_Lazar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zoltan_lazar/32/46685_2.png) [@Zoltan\_Lazar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zoltan_Lazar)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/229 "2018-01-20T08:19:52Z")
It sounds like you’ve got 1-2 people trying to sustain a WH. That’s never been possible, even when poses were a thing or if they upped citadel timers. Also, you don’t have to log in every day. Someone shooting your citadel gives you a notification and there are plenty of mail tools to email you when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/230 "2018-01-20T08:27:00Z")
> [@Zoltan\_Lazar](#): > > It sounds like you’ve got 1-2 people trying to sustain a WH. That’s never been possible, even when poses were a thing or if they upped citadel timers. That’s entirely untrue. We evaded multiple eviction attempts using a handful POS’s, which take minutes to setup in the event things start going poorly rather than 24 hours, and they also don’t send up a beacon for everyone to see while you’re doing it. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/231 "2018-01-20T08:28:31Z")
> [@CCP\_Fozzie](#): > > I’ve replied to several of the questions in the thread so far, but there are three issues that we’re seeing raised a repeatedly in the thread that we wanted to give special attention: One thing is still missing in your list: less static stats for Structures. We are all biased by the role we see ourselves in regarding Citadels and you guys are trying to find the spot in between all of that, which isn’t too oppressive for either of the many sides, while offering dynamic gameplay including fun conflicts around Structures. For certain modules I can totally see that working, e.g. nerfing the Structure Scram, but introducing a Burst Projector instead. However, some of the basic problems, do not seem to be adressable in the same way. I think that Structures should have different stats/capabilities depending on how much commitment people had to show, to put and keep them in space. Neither the attacker nor the defender should be subject to the exact same mechanics in all possible scenarios. A strategically placed, throwaway forward Operations Base shouldn’t be instantly as strong as any homebase Structure and so on. Likewise, the owner of a rigged and highly used Structure shouldn’t be subject to the same balance that tries to address Citadel spam. @CCP_Fozzie couldn’t we have more progressive, less static mechanics regarding the stats and capabilities of Structures? As an example, a 3-step _optional_ Upgrade over time, which favors the ones who commit, either as defenders or attackers. Stage 1 : _Astrahus light_ If you were to nerf the base EHP, Damage Output, Lock Range and whatnot for any Citadel just freshly anchored or not yet upgraded, any such Citadel would provide more defensive options to its owner compared to 1.0, but less than currently avised for 2.0. Taken, that the 5 minute fitting time would still make it into the Update. Any attacker would have to deal with a weaponized Structure, but if they commit and win, it will be less grind than currently. For what it’s worth, I even see sense in a shorter final reinforcement timer in that stage, if it comes to that. Stage 2 : _Astrahus stable_ Then, after X amount of weeks, assuming the Citadel still exists, the owner gets the option to upgrade it for some meaningful cost, because you can assume they’ve earned their spot in space. The upgrade could yield “normal” current EHP and battle capabilities. Maybe certain Structure Modules should only become available after a Structure evolves to this stage, not sure. Stage 3 : _Astrahus deluxe_ And finally, after a year or something, there could be a third stage, another option to upgrade for the accomplished Structure owner, which gives a bonus to Service Module fuel consumption or something like that. Basically, the power of the Structure would somewhat grow over time, if the owner commits to it. Any attacker on their toes will have a less grindy, but still challenging way to take freshly anchored Structures down. ---
**Author:** ![TrouserDeagle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/trouserdeagle/32/420239_2.png) [@TrouserDeagle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/TrouserDeagle)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/232 "2018-01-20T08:51:44Z")
maybe tidi could scale up the damage cap ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/233 "2018-01-20T08:59:00Z")
Probably linked above, but just in case, a lot of sense and support for Vily here: > **[r/Eve - Test Alliance leadership Statement Re: upcoming Citadel changes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/7rland/test_alliance_leadership_statement_re_upcoming/)** > > 1,064 votes and 300 comments so far on Reddit ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/234 "2018-01-20T09:27:39Z")
3 days already isn’t long to plan an evacuation when things go tits up in a WH when you have no chance of defending against a major force, and now that’s being reduced to 2 days in “high power”, meaning that “low power” will be _less than_ a day if timed properly. That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Sophia\_Mileghere](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sophia_mileghere/32/381201_2.png) [@Sophia\_Mileghere](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sophia_Mileghere)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 9:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/235 "2018-01-20T09:30:49Z")
> Loney4h > Since they are changing Citadel timers/modules how about making a change that is worthwhile too, like the mechanic that is current ASSET SAFETY. Along with adjusted drop rates below, we can make some changes that will protect those that are truly AFK. > > Suggested Simple Changes > > 1. If the player ACCOUNT does not log on for more then x-days (14 perhaps) they get 100% of assets moved to asset safety automatically. > 2. Keep normal random mechanic on dropped items of 50/50 destroyed/dropped. > 3. Remove the asset recovery fee associated with getting items back since items will actually be dropped/destroyed now. > 4. Implement “asset safety insurance” you can upgrade your protection to 90% for a one-time fee of 5% asset value, or 100% for a one-time fee of 10% asset value, and insurance is static to each citadel you buy it in forever (or until destroyed/removed). > > Suggested Drop Rate Changes > > 1. Wormholes - Drops 100% (0% goes to asset safety) > 2. Nullsec - Drops 75% of assets (25% goes to asset safety) > 3. Lowsec - Drops 50% of assets (50% goes to asset safety) > 4. Highsec - Drops 25% of assets (75% goes to asset safety) > This simple change along with the current suggested changed for citadel’s should make for a much more interesting gameplay! I would prefer it otherwise. Lets handle them similar to normal killmail: 50% Drops (the other 50% go to asset safety) in all areas ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Athonille](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mollie_athonille/32/218374_2.png) [@Mollie\_Athonille](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mollie_Athonille)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/236 "2018-01-20T10:50:26Z")
Will the 0.5 moons be seeded and able to be probed prior to the Feb 13 release? ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/237 "2018-01-20T10:55:09Z")
> [@CCP\_Fozzie](#): > > Seeing how EVE players react to this unpredictable social ecosystem is something we are looking forward to as always. 😄 smile: I getcha. 😉 I made the point and my conscious is clear. Whatever happens in the future will be ‘working as intended’. Best of luck finalizing the Upwell tweaks. ---
**Author:** ![Freelancer117](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/freelancer117/32/435453_2.png) [@Freelancer117](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Freelancer117)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/238 "2018-01-20T11:11:04Z")
Whats the news on observatory arrays ? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Razpataz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lord_razpataz/32/266831_2.png) [@Lord\_Razpataz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lord_Razpataz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/239 "2018-01-20T11:30:17Z")
What else did you expect, every unintentional change they do is always ‘working as intended’ I’m sure wardecs and suidide ganks will be very effective against fleets of npc miners… 🤔 And “public service” option reminds me of a “pay if you want jar” on a giveaway stand. ---
**Author:** ![Duo\_Roman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/duo_roman/32/379186_2.png) [@Duo\_Roman](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Duo_Roman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/240 "2018-01-20T11:34:57Z")
> [@CCP\_Fozzie](#): > > To be completely honest we’re also a bit concerned that dilating that timer would actually cause more complaints (150 minute repair timers can feel pretty rough) rather than less. How about modify the structure damage cap based on the TiDi? ---
**Author:** ![Hitokiri\_Battoesai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hitokiri_battoesai/32/23830_2.png) [@Hitokiri\_Battoesai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hitokiri_Battoesai)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/241 "2018-01-20T13:25:37Z")
150 min repair timer… Oh god please no, but there has to be another way to make this different then it is right now. ---
**Author:** ![xttz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xttz/32/441557_2.png) [@xttz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/xttz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/242 "2018-01-20T13:46:45Z")
Make the damage cap or damage window scale with tidi. i.e. the 20sec DPS window becomes 200secs when necessary ---
**Author:** ![Kenneth\_Feld](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kenneth_feld/32/435300_2.png) [@Kenneth\_Feld](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kenneth_Feld)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/243 "2018-01-20T14:35:03Z")
REALLY, the fact they can’t tether isn’t enough? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885.md?page=13)