# Dev blog: Upwell 2.0 - Structures Changes Coming On February 13th! **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** official, devblog\ **Created:** [January 18, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885 "2018-01-18T17:34:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Petrified](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/petrified/32/243936_2.png) [@Petrified](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Petrified)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/346 "2018-01-21T00:39:03Z")
> [@CCP\_Fozzie](#): > > The Standup GTFO > > Big thanks to everyone who has been giving us feedback on this module so far. We’re hearing you loud and clear and spent some time discussing the concerns raised by the community as a team internally and with the CSM today. What I can say with confidence right now is that we will definitely be making major changes to this part of the plan based on your feedback so far. We are seriously considering a few options right now including fully removing the Standup GTFO from the plan, or limiting it to highec only (where fights tend to be a bit smaller and where AoE weapon options are much more limited for structure owners). Keep passing along your feedback and we’ll update you all on the plan as it develops next week. Please keep the plan to add this. Tweak it’s cycle time if you need to, but sometimes you need something to delay the enemy until your full support arrives. ---
**Author:** ![Rina\_Cotte](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rina_cotte/32/45213_2.png) [@Rina\_Cotte](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rina_Cotte)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/347 "2018-01-21T00:41:16Z")
Will high sec and worm hole moons be remap for ore types? ---
**Author:** ![Asuna\_Crossbreed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/asuna_crossbreed/32/44864_2.png) [@Asuna\_Crossbreed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Asuna_Crossbreed)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/348 "2018-01-21T01:37:50Z")
> The Standup GTFO > Big thanks to everyone who has been giving us feedback on this module so far. We’re hearing you loud and clear and spent some time discussing the concerns raised by the community as a team internally and with the CSM today. What I can say with confidence right now is that we will definitely be making major changes to this part of the plan based on your feedback so far. We are seriously considering a few options right now including fully removing the Standup GTFO from the plan, or limiting it to highec only (where fights tend to be a bit smaller and where AoE weapon options are much more limited for structure owners). Keep passing along your feedback and we’ll update you all on the plan as it develops next week. with the stats I saw on sisi Im not even worried about this in its current state. its current cap cost could be increased a bit to make spamming it a costly tactic, and the 90 secs (which is actually 110 secs total cycle) could be increased by a small amount, 10 sec to bring the total use time to 2 mins. 3 mins might be better to match with MJD timers but I still find it unnecessary. I will say thought that the standup version should not tackle caps for 60 secs. A shorter time would let your caps bail if their support was successfully gtfoed. Another thing to consider is distance. Instead of a full system wide boosh a shorter range limited to a few AU or so would be much better for the tidi crowed. ---
**Author:** ![Asuna\_Crossbreed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/asuna_crossbreed/32/44864_2.png) [@Asuna\_Crossbreed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Asuna_Crossbreed)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/349 "2018-01-21T01:46:08Z")
PLEASE don’t change your mind on the 5 min fitting timer. For smaller groups this means that they can actually put very expensive structures to use and have some fun content instead of having to use stealth and mad bat-phones to online anything. And for big groups they don’t have to worry about it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/350 "2018-01-21T02:03:54Z")
So again, going back to what I’ve said too many times to count, that doesn’t help the occasional player who will be punished for nothing more than not logging in each day. I’m not worried about corp assets or their destruction… I just think it’s ■■■■■■■■ that individuals are being screwed for not being daily players. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/351 "2018-01-21T02:16:25Z")
> [@Vexxer\_Khashour](#): > > So again, going back to what I’ve said too many times to count, that doesn’t help the occasional player who will be punished for nothing more than not logging in each day. I’m not worried about corp assets or their destruction… I just think it’s ■■■■■■■■ that individuals are being screwed for not being daily players. But you literally don’t have to log in every day. The only way it can be as short as you are saying is if your weekly timer is up. And you know exactly when in the week that is. If your timer is Sunday you don’t have to log in Mon-Sat. Because your final timer can only ever be on Sunday. So as long as you log in some time in the 36 hours before that you will know if your Citadel is under attack and you might have to move assets. To reiterate. You don’t have to log in daily, there is no way they can blow your structure up on a Wednesday, or a Friday. It HAS to be the Sunday that you selected. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/352 "2018-01-21T02:17:28Z")
Even if I can log in, what if my friend is unavailable Friday and Saturday? ■■■■ him for needing 48 hours away from Eve? ---
**Author:** ![Wander\_Prian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wander_prian/32/394208_2.png) [@Wander\_Prian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wander_Prian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/353 "2018-01-21T02:18:34Z")
That was the case when you were living in a POS as well. Nothing has changed in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/354 "2018-01-21T02:19:29Z")
Except for having 150 mill structures instead of 1.2 billion pinata’s with 100% asset drops. ---
**Author:** ![Vexxer\_Khashour](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vexxer_khashour/32/50149_2.png) [@Vexxer\_Khashour](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vexxer_Khashour)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/355 "2018-01-21T02:20:30Z")
Also, going back to POS’s, you don’t have the downside of having a 24 hour anchor and no beacon showing everyone what you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/356 "2018-01-21T02:21:55Z")
> [@Vexxer\_Khashour](#): > > Even if I can log in, what if my friend is unavailable Friday and Saturday? ■■■■ him for needing 48 hours away from Eve? Yeah, sucks to be him. But the value of the structure is irrelevant, you literally just said you didn’t care about the Corp assets getting blown up. Taking 48 hours off while in a wormhole is always a risk, it always was a risk, it always will be a risk. And can be mitigated in some ways, Know you are going to be away, move your biggest assets to the corp hanger so your friends can evac them for you. Of course then you have to worry about theft, but that happened in POS all the time also, so you are no worse off than a POS used to be, and so so much better off in so many other ways. POS also always had a beacon, it just had the icon of a moon on it. ---
**Author:** ![Wander\_Prian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wander_prian/32/394208_2.png) [@Wander\_Prian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wander_Prian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/357 "2018-01-21T02:35:33Z")
That is harder to take down than the POS, had better services, you can dock at. I think it’s worth its price. ---
**Author:** ![Alekseyev\_Karrde](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/alekseyev_karrde/32/407086_2.png) [@Alekseyev\_Karrde](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Alekseyev_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/358 "2018-01-21T03:40:49Z")
I really like the GTFO but it does pose problems with TIDI affecting fleets but not repair timers. If that could be addressed I think the module adds some really fun, chaotic gameplay dynamics. The highsec X days amount seems a bit too high. With wardecs being what they are, more room for error without being locked into a second week of decs would be much more balanced between attacked and defender. The rest of these changes are pretty encouraging and I’m interested to see how they play out. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/359 "2018-01-21T03:50:33Z")
> [@Vexxer\_Khashour](#): > > So again, going back to what I’ve said too many times to count, that doesn’t help the occasional player who will be punished for nothing more than not logging in each day. At the end of the day, it’s going to be impossible for CCP to balance it in favour of everyone. Too much time/defence, which suits the small group, creates boring play for the larger groups. That’s the way it’s been up to now. It hasn’t driven much conflict. On a broader game level what’s better for CCP to balance around: (1) the small group who don’t even login more than once a week, or (2) the guys who are logging in daily in large numbers and trying to provide content for their groups? The purpose of the rebalance isn’t to make it easier for casual play. That hasn’t been the outcry from the community since citadels were introduced. It’s going the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Sakido\_Cain](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakido_cain/32/38139_2.png) [@Sakido\_Cain](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakido_Cain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/360 "2018-01-21T04:09:33Z")
@CCP_Fozzie While many of these changes are not only needed but desired, the addition of Moongoo to w-space is appalling. The reason for the new changes to moon mining was to encite conflicts over moons with active mining. The fact that we will be allowed to mine in relative safety, as access to W-space is randomly determined, and the ability to hinder miners on a moon frak is rather low. The fact that you would have to stage an assault days to weeks in advance, makes it unlikely at best that any miners in w-space will be harassed, much less effectively countered, unless you are just unlucky enough to have hostiles roll through while you mine. If we need more moongoo on the market, then the available supply should either be buffed, or refining yields increased to meet the demands. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/361 "2018-01-21T04:17:01Z")
> [@Sakido\_Cain](#): > > While many of these changes are not only needed but desired, the addition of Moongoo to w-space is appalling Are you really that concerned about the R4’s? That’s the only moon goo getting added to WH space. They aren’t getting the 8’s, 16’s, 32’s or 64’s. ---
**Author:** ![Obil\_Que](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/obil_que/32/171329_2.png) [@Obil\_Que](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Obil_Que)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/362 "2018-01-21T04:34:49Z")
> [@Vexxer\_Khashour](#): > > Also, going back to POS’s, you don’t have the downside of having a 24 hour anchor and no beacon showing everyone what you’re doing. PIck your argument. Anchoring doesn’t matter for ■■■■ when discussing eviction tactics. How often are you anchoring structures in your wormhole where this even matters? POSes could be destroyed in less than 48 hours attackable anytime CItadels can be attacked any time with an armor timer at the time of day that you set (24+ hours after the first attack) and a hull timer where you set the exact day of week and time of day (+/- 2 hours). A well timed attack would mean your Citadel could be destroyed in roughly 48 hours. The exact math isn’t terribly relevant because it is nearly **exactly the same as a POS**. And if you’re not fueling your citadel to get the third timer then you are truly incapable of properly defending your space because you’re not even taking every necessary precaution to do so. If you think your POS was some kind of magical defense, it wasn’t. No one who wanted to evict you before would have cared how your POS was set up and the same holds true for Citadels. If you can’t play every 48 hours in wormhole space, then truly nothing has changed for you and it is every bit as risky. 100% drops don’t matter to your safety. Whether an attacker gets 50% or 100% of stuff doesn’t change your risk. You have too few people to defend yourself against any attacker. I fail to see how any of these changes makes any difference to your actual risk. Just your perception that somehow a structure you had before was somehow safer that it is now which isn’t the case. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/363 "2018-01-21T09:56:04Z")
I am against different mechanisms of citadels across the security zones. I think that citadels should be as easy to destroy as POS. Should be just a repeat of POS attacking and defending potential. I am also thinking that asset safety system is ok, but the cost should be at least 10% value of belongings, but at least 20% items should drop in explosion of citadel. ---
**Author:** ![Chocolate\_Pickle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/chocolate_pickle/32/12219_2.png) [@Chocolate\_Pickle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Chocolate_Pickle)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/364 "2018-01-21T11:27:17Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > at least 20% items 20% measured how? By volume, by quantity, or by ISK value? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885/365 "2018-01-21T11:34:56Z")
20% of item by quantity, just a modified drop rate from destroying for example a player ship in space. Thing is you should extract the items to other place yourself or by contract before they are destroyed. Within 48 hour reinforcement phase optimally, like with reinforced POS. I always wanted the thing to replace POS to be easier with producing and onlining, the whole attacking and defending was ok with me. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/dev-blog-upwell-2-0-structures-changes-coming-on-february-13th/51885.md?page=19)