# Devblog: CSM Winter Summit 2019 Meeting Minutes **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** devblog, csm\ **Created:** [March 19, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215 "2019-03-19T15:28:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/267 "2019-03-26T04:07:54Z")
Okay, I do understand that renters can (and probably do) vote with their wallets. But, I still think it’s a problem that should be addressed for all the same reasons that war deck mechanics were. And, I don’t mean to put words into your mouth, but it does seem like your solution is to tell people to play differently. And that just doesn’t work for a lot of players. Of course, some will rise to the challenge and overcome, but many will just fall to the wayside. I know many would say good riddance to such players, but they do provide content (in terms of kills and funding landlord PvP) and they help keep the lights on at CCP. In short, the game needs sheep so that the wolves can feed, and I think it’s at least worth considering how mechanics influence their retention. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/268 "2019-03-26T04:17:39Z")
My solution is only ‘play differently’ in that I’m saying ‘if what you’re doing isn’t giving you what you want, then _you_ need to make a change to get it’. Putting it on someone else is just… lazy, and frankly, kind of obnoxious. If you want something, figure out what you need to do to get it, and then _do_ that. And maybe that’s going to mean doing something differently, but clearly, what you’ve _been_ doing **isn’t** getting you what you wanted. If I walk into McDonald’s and ask for a pizza, I’m not gonna get one, and that’s fine. If I really want a pizza, I need to _do something else_. Insisting that McD’s needs to start serving pizza is just a bit ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/269 "2019-03-26T04:19:36Z")
So, do you think it was wrong to change the highsec wardec mechanics as well? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/270 "2019-03-26T04:20:31Z")
Sometimes it does need to be on CCP. Claiming that players just need to adapt when it’s obvious a system is bad is silly. Now, is the afk cloaking system one of these… eh. I think afk cloakers are a symptom of local intel being too good, and of EVE intel being too black and white. you either know all the details or none. You never have a stage where you know there is a ship on scan but not who it is or what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Shipwreck\_Jones](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/shipwreck_jones/32/274382_2.png) [@Shipwreck\_Jones](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Shipwreck_Jones)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/271 "2019-03-26T04:32:08Z")
Oh my god, I just realized that I’ve had this discussion before… in my criminal Justice class. We were on the subject of reducing recidivism, and prison education programs came out. Needless to say, the class was rather divided (presumably along party lines). Anyway, half the class was of the opinion that the outcome of reduced recidivism justified prison education programs, while the other half thought it was an injustice that prisoners were being rewarded with an education. I swear to god, one of their arguments was that the effect on recidivism didn’t matter, people shouldn’t commit crimes because it was wrong to commit crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/272 "2019-03-26T04:34:36Z")
> [@Shipwreck\_Jones](#): > > So, do you think it was wrong to change the highsec wardec mechanics as well? I think the highsec wardec mechanics weren’t getting CCP what they wanted. I also think that the structure-based highsec wardec mechanics will, in the long-term, just get more and more people opting out completely. The wardec corps will continue to use the new system as a way to identify targets[1], and the changes going into the system pretty much guarantees that smaller groups _cannot_ fight back. Small alliances cannot pool their resources to effectively fight back as a single fleet, especially in an off-TZ. FW alliances will get dec’d in HS, and see the War HQ in the opposing faction’s space, where they can’t stay on-grid long enough to shoot it without the FacPo showing up[2]. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You never have a stage where you know there is a ship on scan but not who it is or what it is. I’d even go more granular than that. Give a ‘ship on scan’, then give size. Then ‘Rifter-based hull’, and finally ‘Jaguar’. And while yes, I think that local is too good of an intelligence tool, I also think that until they work out better ways for nullsec groups to establish intelligence capabilities within their space, and even give us things like gate guns and possibly even barely-competent NPC facpo (like the equivalent of picket corvettes that can notify nearby systems of an intruding force), they need to not take the _one_ tool we’ve got for intel away. * * * 1. Because reps from Marmite _and_ PIRAT have already confirmed that this is the primary effect of the new system. ‘Oh, you own a structure? Great! You have enough money to extort!’ They can talk up ‘we want content’ all they want, but really, they don’t. They want _victims_ that they can threaten into paying them to go away. 2. CCP’s answer to this, btw, is ‘well, hire mercs or quit the militia’. Think about that. Players who _want_ to fight are being told ‘hire someone else to fight for you, or quit the thing you use to make ISK’. Does that make sense _at all_? ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/273 "2019-03-26T04:42:36Z")
> [@MB\_ThePhotographer](#): > > Goons break things because there is something to be broken. I was talking about resource price, like what they did to bhaalgorns by over farming them its almost the same price as t1 hull xD lol ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/274 "2019-03-26T04:45:24Z")
That’s exactly my point, and why it need’s discussion my personal belief is that its too quick, but It’s not about what I believe and hence why it needs discussion to see if It is fine where it is, or needs adjusting. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/275 "2019-03-26T04:46:36Z")
Well yes, the more steps of Intel the better. I could probably sketch out a simple system with a few actions as well a player can take to make it… but if I can then so can CCP sketch the system out. Which means either CCP dont want to change it or the code to change it would be horrendous. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/276 "2019-03-26T04:48:48Z")
Or they haven’t thought of it. Never assume that just because you’ve thought of it, someone else will. They’ve got a lot of other things to focus on. After all, look at how many millennia it took to invent the pet door, and how simple that was. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 4:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/277 "2019-03-26T04:51:44Z")
Eh. True. Poke me in OOC or Discord in a few days and see if I’ve gotten onto a sketch yet. I might have time tomorrow to play with a simple system. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/278 "2019-03-26T07:25:42Z")
I disagree with everything you just posted. The last and only time that I remember a CSM member actually posting a thread in the forums asking for input from the community was Jin’taan during CSM 12. And the playerbase was very active in that thread. Probably because it was posted in a sub-forum with high usage. By the way, as representatives of the Eve Community, I definitely expect them to ask the playerbase for input about various topics. They’re not mind readers and should never assume they know what the playerbase wants. Also I shouldn’t have to hunt down the CSM or do extra steps just to make my voice heard. They should be actively seeking input from the community at all times because things and issues within the game can and do change rather quickly. > [@Omnathious\_Deninard](#): > > @Brisc_Rubal did this in 4 threads in the Assembly Hall section of the forums after he was elected. > [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](#): > > There’s feedback forums that @Brisc_Rubal created. Even broken down between Sec systems as well. I guess you actually mean threads which is great. However it doesn’t help if those threads don’t get any exposure due to being posted in a sub-forum that is rarely active. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > The first thing I did on my first day in office was put up a bunch of threads in the CSM area asking for feedback. I’ve been asking for feedback constantly for a year. > > If you don’t know what I’ve been doing, then you shouldn’t be making broad generalizations about what I’ve been doing. Well, sorry I missed that. Like I said before, I shouldn’t have to do extra steps just to see if the CSM is actively seeking input from the playerbase. It would help a lot if a notice/message thread inviting the playerbase to participate was posted in high usage sub-forums directing us to the appropriate sub-forum. ---
**Author:** ![Rivr\_Luzade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rivr_luzade/32/311061_2.png) [@Rivr\_Luzade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rivr_Luzade)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/279 "2019-03-26T08:35:31Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > and of EVE intel being too black and white. you either know all the details or none And that is a good thing. I do not need any more effort when I want to decide whether it’s worth staying and engaging or better to warp away and spare myself from a useless, one-sided gank. Having said that … > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > you never have a stage where you know there is a ship on scan but not who it is or what it is. That is patently false. Just be in a system with more than 5 people in it and your ability to see who is who on dscan starts to break down. I suddenly see several ships on dscan. Did my corp mate undock in a ship because the neutral entered system? Or is that ship the neutral? I have not seen a new ship appear right after the neutral appeared. Is he the Jaguar now or is he cloaky? Intel in previous systems have not reported any ship type. Why are there 2 T3C on dscan now? Hey, Corp Mate, are you that Loki or that Stiletto? There was a Tengu on scan just moments ago called “Dicksquad”, now there is a Tengu called Savior. Is that you or is it the red? I have these situations all the time. Not just while ratting but also during camps in busy systems. There are already lots of situations where it is not clear what is going on even with the perfect local. People’s opinions on the local are just as “black and white” and uninformed as they accuse local to be. ---
**Author:** ![Drago\_Shouna](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drago_shouna/32/350651_2.png) [@Drago\_Shouna](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drago_Shouna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/280 "2019-03-26T12:00:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > All too often—and I say this as someone who has to go and solicit development feedback on a regular basis—asking for feedback gets ignored. It gets answered with deafening silence. That’s because it gets ignored. I’ve put up a simple suggestion months and months ago in the ideas/qol thread about giving us the ability to switch characters without having to log out then back in. Not once have I seen it mentioned in any minutes by the csm, or seen anything back from CCP. So when this happens players don’t bother any more. A quick reply from CCP saying they’ll look at it or something would show that they do take notice. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But… can you tell me you haven’t _interacted_ with people? Cuz… you are, right now. 😉 Lol of course I have. I have been in corps and alliances in HS/NS. But I always begrudge being told that I have to do this or do that, when all I wanted to do was play how I wanted to play. Yeah that sounds selfish I know. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/281 "2019-03-26T12:10:34Z")
> [@Drago\_Shouna](#): > > I’ve put up a simple suggestion months and months ago in the ideas/qol thread about giving us the ability to switch characters without having to log out then back in. > > Not once have I seen it mentioned in any minutes by the csm, or seen anything back from CCP. So when this happens players don’t bother any more. This has been a topic for probably a decade. CCP answered it ages ago that it is a technical limitation. Actually asking other older players would give you that information and not leave you looking silly for complaining ccp don’t personally reply to you telling you they already answered it. ---
**Author:** ![Drago\_Shouna](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drago_shouna/32/350651_2.png) [@Drago\_Shouna](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drago_Shouna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/282 "2019-03-26T12:18:36Z")
Rubbish, plenty of other games can do it. BTW, not once have I ever seen it mentioned in any thread, which is why I asked. But thanks for giving an example of why players don’t bother with your reply. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/283 "2019-03-26T12:29:45Z")
Plenty of other games are not eve, they do not have eves code base. They are not remotely like eve. Is it a thing a lot of people want yes, but it has been answered by CCP, so your complaint that CCP don’t answer things is demonstrably false. ---
**Author:** ![Jerry\_Falcone](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jerry_falcone/32/167073_2.png) [@Jerry\_Falcone](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jerry_Falcone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/284 "2019-03-26T12:37:12Z")
Do other games play on one server, or multiple servers?? I think due to being on one server is the issue with that. > The CSM even brought up the idea with the DEVs some years ago. The DEVs flat out said that it would take “5 programmers 6 months of work to save players 10 seconds.” > CCP Karkur wrote: > No. We would love to be able to do that, but that is not at all a “character selection screen” issue. > Once a connection has been made, both the server code and client code make a lot of assumptions that the characterID will not change, and it’s very far from trivial to change that (otherwise we probably would have done that a long time ago) ---
**Author:** ![Drago\_Shouna](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drago_shouna/32/350651_2.png) [@Drago\_Shouna](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drago_Shouna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/285 "2019-03-26T12:45:24Z")
> [@Jerry\_Falcone](#): > > Do other games play on one server, or multiple servers?? I think due to being on one server is the issue with that. I play ESO on the xbox, on the European server. You have 2 choices, that or the USA one. So it could be looked at as a single server game. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215/286 "2019-03-26T12:47:04Z")
We are aware it decreases activity, obviously. But as was noted in the minutes, when I asked Fozzie about whether he thought isk generation levels or botting was a bigger problem, he said botting. There are dozens of good ideas for getting rid of AFK cloaky camping that can get implemented when CCP thinks it’s time. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215.md?page=13) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/devblog-csm-winter-summit-2019-meeting-minutes/147215.md?page=15)