# Discussion about "Into the Abyss" update

**URL:** <https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843>\
**Category:** General Discussion\
**Created:** [April 15, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843 "2018-04-15T12:09:59Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 41

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**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/844 "2018-05-16T15:19:33Z")

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or is there a specific case where the pockets rats can group up ?

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**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/845 "2018-05-16T15:20:03Z")

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By this I mean:

- The Local Effects screwing you (so far I have seen gas zones with some debuffs/buffs)
- Spawn composition screwing you (All ECM rats having webs instead of anything else)
- Structure placement screwing you (Deviant Automata Suppressor)

Things are procedurally generated, so you **will** have cases where the three are stacked up against you, and in that case, your ship explodes and that’s it.

If we are going with a distribution that doesn’t take into account those cases it will lead to people ending up in dead-ends.

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**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/846 "2018-05-16T15:22:31Z")

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Dont worry.  
The pockets are Cruiser specific, and will be runnable with Cruisers once live.

You might have to seriously bling your Cruiser to comfortably run L5 though.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/847 "2018-05-16T15:27:13Z")

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in the S1, the local effects are very limited.

I run calm dark and basically there was

- blue cloud that increases your signature
- automata supressor that destroys drones
- a pylon that, when close, increases my tracking by 60% I think
- a red cloud but can’t remember what id does.

Of course S1 are very easy, so they should not generate a lot of death … still the BS can alpha quite a bit and the trig deal heavy damage, especially if you are webbed.

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**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/848 "2018-05-16T15:28:47Z")

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> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#):
>
> Things are procedurally generated, so you will have cases where the three are stacked up against you

THat is taken into account. And fits are designed for worst case scenarios.

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**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/849 "2018-05-16T15:30:37Z")

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> [@Anderson\_Geten](#):
>
> blue cloud that increases your signature

all area of effect beacons - be they clouds or structures impact both you and the npcs. blue clouds are very useful against drone swarms. orange clouds are bad for active shield tanks. etc

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**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/850 "2018-05-16T15:32:15Z")

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Tell me what kind of fit you can come up with that can handle you having your tracking debuffed, and then spwaning over a deviant automata?

And this is just one case of the myriads ones the RNG could come up with to screw you.

I doubt there is a omni-fit you could bring to a pocket with the assurance that the pocket wouldn’t find a way to counter. And if there happens to be one I bet the first thing CCP will do is introduce something that would screw that fit.

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**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/851 "2018-05-16T15:34:46Z")

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Ideal fit/ship is already known, even under SiSi conditions.

You gals are way behind,

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/852 "2018-05-16T15:35:11Z")

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deviant automata only affects your drones and missiles (mostly light missiles due to their low hitpoints.

tracking debuff is countered by a standard drop/Antipharmakon Iokira and a +3 tracking implant Eifyr & Co. ‘Gunslinger’ MR-703.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/853 "2018-05-16T15:36:33Z")

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> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#):
>
> I doubt there is a omni-fit you could bring to a pocket with the assurance that the pocket wouldn’t find a way to counter. And if there happens to be one I bet the first thing CCP will do is introduce something that would screw that fit.

well no… thats not really true is it. I use 1 fit for my eagle and have nearly 95% success rate in tier 4 filaments of the gamma, firestorm, exotic and electric type.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/854 "2018-05-16T15:38:50Z")

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@zluq_zabaa has spent over an hour typing his post…  
I see your avatar below.  
Poor guy, and poor us when his wall of text/crap arrives…

Zluq, learn to keep it simple and boiled down.  
I used to write essays too, and then learned why that is never worth it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/855 "2018-05-16T15:46:28Z")

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@March_rabbit  
The idea that tier1 should _always_ spawn tier2 filaments, tier2 _always_ a tier3 and so on (aka what some people called “linear”) is a special case of “droprate = 1”. Another case could be that _always_ one filament drops, but you don’t know for which level. So it makes no sense to discuss this specific proposal as the general baseline for wether or not droprate should be above, below or equal to 1.

There is no _logical_ way to deduct where the filament-droprate should be. Everyone can pick those forms of PvE which gives them the best _precedence_ case and pretend that it means it would be _logical_ Abyssal Deadspace would work in the same way.

Instead of questionable comparisons, we should try and weigh in the factors that support or contradict one model or the other.

You’ll end up with a matrix of:

- overall droprate(s) of filaments;
- chance of tier/type X filament drop in tier/type Y site; (X equal or unequal Y)
- droprate(s) of other loot in tier/type

A bunch of questions arise from that. For instance: do we want filaments(keys) to be (valuable loot/necessary evil/trash that we have to carry)? How should the other loot and chances on lootdrops reflect themselves in regards to filament droprates?

Let me do this.

(Please note that when I speak about _average_ or _overall_ I abstract from a single player, in order to separate general results of mechanics from the individual options a single player could still have, but the _general average player_ can’t have)

1. General Filament Droprate \< 1  
Any such model must _necessarily_ lead to the _overall_ filament supply being lower than the _overall_ demand. There would be the need to compensate for that _outside_ of Abyssal Deadspace in any sub-case of such a model. Such a compensation is planned for Data Sites, but only for Tier 1 Filaments. Everything after that depends on the exact model, according to type/tier droprate.  
If, in such a “\<1” model, you have higher chance to find a filament equal or lower than the tier you are running, it will lead to high level filaments being more rare. This could make sense, if the droprate of other loot would make Tier4/Tier5 highly desireable.  
If, on the other hand, you have a higher (or only, like in Salvos example) chance to find a higher tier filament with chance still being \<1, there will be a constant need to farm lower tier sites. It bears the question what happens in tier5 and how the loottable for non-filament-drops should reflect this model. It would also lead to the _average_ necessity for each Tier X _someone_ needs to run {Data Site, Tier1,… Tier(X-1)}.

2. General Filament Droprate = 1  
Again, it depends on the sub-case of such a model. Generally a droprate of 1 will allow for _average_ permanent supply of filaments _in general_. It will lead to most sought after filaments rising in price, while undesireable type/tiers will quickly pile up.  
If the sub-model would be TierX always leading to a filament of TierX+1, it would bear the question what happens to Tier5 and how the loot-table should reflect that. Higher tier sites would be harder to run, but no harder to find an entry. In a players reality it would highly favor those who run PvE content near-by market hubs, where they can buy/sell keys to desireable/undesirable content. Again, it would also lead to the _average_ necessity for each Tier X _someone_ needs to run {Data Site, Tier1,… Tier(X-1)}.  
If the sub-model would be a different one, for instance droprate = 1, with type/tier even dropchance, there will be no such necessity of bottom-to-top-chaining. Desireable filaments rise in price, undesireable fall.

3. General Filament Droprate \> 1  
It will mean that the supply for filaments will _always_ be larger than the amount of sites that are run. Over a long enough period it will push the price of _more and more_ filaments down. Depending on the exact dropchances and sub-model, only the more desireable Type/Tier filaments might have an actual demand higher than actual supply.  
Now, in this model, if the so-called “linear” approach would be taken, you’d end up with Tier5 filaments being much more available than Tier1. Regarding the _possible_ loot distribution by tier, this seems to make no sense.  
An evenly-spread distribution, would create the above mentioned scenario, which has the effect that players far from trade-hubs have better chances of being self-sustained with filaments. They can’t chose types/tiers, but they have a higher chance of getting something they _can_ run.

**Personally, I don’t favor any of these models, and here is why.**

> There should be a market for filaments, but people far from tradehubs should not be overly punished.  
> Any “linear” model with droprate \<=\>1 leads to people near tradehubs being able to perma-farm _their_ preferred types, while others can’t. -1 for any “linear” model.  
> To guarantee an interesting market, the droprates should not be too high. Taken that a drop for Tier X has only a 20% chance to be TypeA of TierX, it does not automatically exclude a droprate \> 1, but bears the question of a limit. This highly depends on what players will see as desireable Tier/Type in regards of risk/reward/workload.

> There should be no unnecessary amount of grinding  
> This again, goes strongly against the idea of “linear” models, in which there is always the need for DataSite,X-Y…X for every TierX to be run.

> There should be no endless farming of the same type/tier  
> To an extent this is anyway solved by the _type_ of a filament drop having a 20% chance each. Taken that you can clearly see the very different challenges for each _type_ in Tier4 and Tier5 sites, it could somewhat limit farming. However, if the _general_ droprates are too high, people can still circumvent that, especially if they live close to trade-hubs.

So, as you can see, I don’t claim to extrapolate _logically_ from _laws of EVE_ that does not exist, but try to approach the question from a perspective of what I think is balance. Balance between Market/remote location, Grinding/Farming.

**_In turn I came to the following conclusions:_**

1. A model in which filament droprates are higher for lower Tier sites. Filament Droprate T1\>T2\>T3\>T4\>T5
2. In combination with a tier-dropchance like we currently have it on SiSi (highest chance to find filament of same level, lower chances to find lower/higher tier filament)
3. With a loottable that clearly distincts each Tier from the others, with T5 \> T4 \> T3 \> T2 \> T1
4. A droprate for T1 and T2 being \> 1, T3 close to or equal 1 and T4,T5 being slightly lower than 1.

> This will lead to higher tier sites being more rare and can’t be farmed in endless loops on, because their filament droprate doesn’t allow for that. Which will guarantee a market for them as well. It will also lead to a market for some lower tier filaments.  
> Then, it will lead to Tier1 and Tier2 filaments being more or less cheap. This is good in my book, because it allows less-skilled players to participate equally, without going deep pocket. However, it will also encourage them to strive for higher tiers and with that develop their skills.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/856 "2018-05-16T15:49:01Z")

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> [@zluq\_zabaa](#):
>
> A bunch of questions arise from that. For instance: do we want filaments(keys) to be (valuable loot/necessary evil/trash that we have to carry)?

FIlament’s will always have a certain value due to their loot potential.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/857 "2018-05-16T15:49:19Z")

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You wasted your time.

Its much simpler, and rational, that you get one guaranteed drop of a L2 filament from an L1 pocket, and a guaranteed L3 filament drop from a L2 pocket, and so forth, till L5 no longer drops a filament.

You can either choose to run the chain to the end, or sell that filament to someone else that wants it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/858 "2018-05-16T15:51:35Z")

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> [@zluq\_zabaa](#):
>
> If, in such a “\<1” model, you have higher chance to find a filament equal or lower than the tier you are running, it will lead to high level filaments being more rare. This could make sense, if the droprate of other loot would make Tier4/Tier5 highly desireable.

That is a very valid and well reasoned point actually! and probably factored in to the current drop rates on SISI (certainly so far i have had less chaotic filament drops than fierce for example!)

From my testing the most common filaments are t2.3 and 4. and t1 and t5 are less common.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/859 "2018-05-16T15:51:43Z")

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> [@Loreline\_Farcloud](#):
>
> > [@zluq\_zabaa](#):
> >
> > A bunch of questions arise from that. For instance: do we want filaments(keys) to be (valuable loot/necessary evil/trash that we have to carry)?
> 
> FIlament’s will always have a certain value due to their loot potential.

Stands to reason L5 will be in highest demand, as a pocket with the best rewards.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/860 "2018-05-16T15:54:40Z")

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> [@zluq\_zabaa](#):
>
> Now, in this model, if the so-called “linear” approach would be taken, you’d end up with Tier5 filaments being much more available than Tier1. Regarding the possible loot distribution by tier, this seems to make no sense.

exactly.

and from discussion with other players it seems dark matter filaments will be the least desirable of the 5 weather types, and prices for these will likely be lower than other filament types.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/861 "2018-05-16T15:55:52Z")

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> [@zluq\_zabaa](#):
>
> Any “linear” model with droprate \<=\>1 leads to people near tradehubs being able to perma-farm their preferred types, while others can’t. -1 for any “linear” model.

exactly. this is another argument why linear drop rates aren’t viable

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/862 "2018-05-16T15:55:59Z")

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One filament to the next pocket level, guaranteed, per pocket.  
Its that simple.

Thus every filament is one chain, and the entirety of the chain is player sourced.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Loreline\_Farcloud](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/loreline_farcloud/32/69487_2.png) [@Loreline\_Farcloud](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Loreline_Farcloud)\
**Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-about-into-the-abyss-update/69843/863 "2018-05-16T15:57:19Z")

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> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#):
>
> Stands to reason L5 will be in highest demand, as a pocket with the best rewards.

No, as T5 (chaotic) filaments have the lowest survival rate and highest risk to reward ratio. much more likely is that T3 (fierce) filaments or possibly t4 will be in highest demand due to a more favourable ratio

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