# Discussion Of The Implications Of Niarja's Invasion **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [August 17, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741 "2020-08-17T05:26:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/899 "2020-08-20T16:39:25Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Combat PvE is a menial grind, mining is completely non-interactive, and manufacturing has no purpose. If you add “FOR ME” this becomes valid. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/900 "2020-08-20T16:40:11Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > If you add “FOR ME” this becomes valid Why would I add redundant words when it’s true as-is? ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/901 "2020-08-20T16:41:10Z")
Combat PVE is not menial grind for me. So your statement is not true as is ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/902 "2020-08-20T16:42:45Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > If you sum up Mining, Industry, Missions, Hacking, Incursions - PvE stuff, that’s 66.5% of the players. Earlier I gave another chart which said that highsec is 2/3 to 3/4 of the playerbase. That means that 40-50% of the whole playerbase are highsec PvE players. You just posted a chart where the percentage values add up to something north of 450%, see if you can figure out where you ■■■■■■ up. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/903 "2020-08-20T16:43:16Z")
so you get given all your stuff from alliance/corp overlords, or you are an overlord and you demand your underlings provide you with free things doing tasks you feel are beneath you! Not saying its wrong to have minions do stuff for you. But you arent flying around in space powered by hopes and dreams. its a spacceship you are using, someone BUILT it. Those ores didntn magic into existsnce. someone MINED them. Those green, blue and purple modules are real, someone PVE’d for them just because it was gifted to you or you used market trading skills to acquire it doesnt delete the fact that the portions of the game you literally just said you dislike are a trillion percent ESSENTIAL if you want to undock, let alone pvp ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/905 "2020-08-20T16:44:48Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > Combat PVE is not menial grind for me. Then you are terrible at EVE. Once you learn how to do PvE it’s indisputably a menial grind. There is no chance of failure and no opportunity for meaningful decisions or strategy, only pressing F1 according to the script until you complete the content and claim the reward. And then you repeat the same content over and over again, without any variation. That’s a textbook definition of “menial grind”. > [@Aramatheia](#): > > But you arent flying around in space powered by hopes and dreams. its a spacceship you are using, someone BUILT it. Yes, and what’s your point? Nothing requires that the person who built it be a solo PvE-only player. In fact, some PvP players even build their own ships out of minerals they mine! ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/907 "2020-08-20T16:45:20Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > There have been wars, ganking, etc, in highsec for the entire existence of EVE. There haven’t been Trigs. There haven’t been irreversible high-null system transitions. That’s meaningfull. Because its irreversible. Wars, ganking, etc, are temporary. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/908 "2020-08-20T16:46:13Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > There haven’t been Trigs. There haven’t been irreversible high-null system transitions. That’s meaningfull. Because its irreversible. Wars, ganking, etc, are temporary War isn’t meaningful? That’s surprising news to the many people who cared very strongly about them. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/912 "2020-08-20T16:48:09Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > There is no chance of failure and no opportunity for meaningful decisions or strategy, only pressing F1 according to the script until you complete the content and claim the reward. There’s still competition. That’s enough for me. Not enough for you? You do you. Don’t shove it to me though. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/913 "2020-08-20T16:50:09Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > There’s still competition. From what? Competition requires a chance of failure, and EVE’s PvE contains no chance for failure unless you are a clueless newbie. Your victory in every single instance of PvE content is effectively guaranteed. (Excluding other players, of course, but the context of this discussion started from a hypothetical version of EVE with no other players.) ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/917 "2020-08-20T16:53:59Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You just posted a chart where the percentage values add up to something north of 450%, see if you can figure out where you ■■■■■■ up. I know! Its a strange one from [EVE Economy Update - EVE Vegas 2015 Report](https://www.eveonline.com/article/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report) It says its player activity on any given day, so I think if you mined and warped and ran mission and did something else you’ll end up in all of those categories. So I should’t have multiplied numbers just like that. I admit. Would love to see any better data. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/918 "2020-08-20T16:55:19Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > It says its player activity on any given day, so I think if you mined and warped and ran mission and did something else you’ll end up in all of those categories. And this is what makes it borderline useless for any serious analysis. Many PvP players do other things at some point during the day, especially if you consider their alts. So the real percentage of the player base involved in PvP is likely much higher than those numbers would suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/919 "2020-08-20T16:56:03Z")
What an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Trevor\_Dalech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/trevor_dalech/32/410287_2.png) [@Trevor\_Dalech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Trevor_Dalech)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/920 "2020-08-20T16:56:34Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > Have you looked at the map? Half of (or very close to) high-sec lives in Caldari space. Now consider other players: - A lot of wormhole players trade in Amarr, since it’s more central, and so a random high sec connection is more likely to be close to amarr than jita. - Null sec players don’t care what the main trade hub will be, they can JF around. - Low sec players will follow the ganks/loot. If the map changes, they’ll switch which systems they camp. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/921 "2020-08-20T16:59:33Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > I know! Its a strange one from [EVE Economy Update - EVE Vegas 2015 Report](https://www.eveonline.com/article/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report) It says its player activity on any given day, so I think if you mined and warped and ran mission and did something else you’ll end up in all of those categories. > > So I should’t have multiplied numbers just like that. I admit. > > Would love to see any better data. Yes, I know what it is and no, it’s not that strange. You just can’t draw the conclusion you drew from that chart. Nevermind the totaling of percentages by itself (obviously wrong but whatever), you also have a problem of player Vs character activity attribution. I run 6 omega characters. One does cap and subcap PvP, another is trained into caps and finds himself in PvP far less frequently. All 6 do industry of some stripe or another. So all 6 of my characters are counted in that “66.5%” but in actuality, as a _player_ choosing sides, obviously I’m not going to be on that side. ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/922 "2020-08-20T17:00:54Z")
Playing solo doesn’t mean without other players! A quote from a dev talk I posted earlier “Being a ‘loner’ implies and requires other people - namely those which are being avoided.” > [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Excluding other players, of course, but the context of this discussion started from a hypothetical version of EVE with no other players. This is the source of our dispute. Competition for highsec sites is very much a thing. I stole a lot of Pithum-C Invulns and Pithi-A SBs, and valuable implants for instance. I had 4/10s with 4 people competing. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/923 "2020-08-20T17:04:35Z")
> [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > A quote from a dev talk I posted earlier “Being a ‘loner’ implies and requires other people - namely those which are being avoided.” But that goes back to my original point: if your goal is to avoid other players why play an MMO when the genre makes significant sacrifices in gameplay quality to enable its multiplayer features? The PvE activities themselves are menial farming nonsense, they only become interesting when you add other players (whether as enemies or allies). ---
**Author:** ![Siegfried\_Tahl](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/siegfried_tahl/32/377209_2.png) [@Siegfried\_Tahl](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Siegfried_Tahl)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/924 "2020-08-20T17:07:06Z")
I avoid grouping up. Joining corporation and fleets. I’m introverted and commitment-phobic, I play at my own pace. I may dock up for cup o tea at any moment. Or may cloak up and go wipe my kids ass at any moment. I enjoy other players presence around me. Namely competition as I described it. Cutting off competitors in combat sites or stealing from them is enough thrill for me. New content is nigh impossible to run solo. I ran and I liked original emerging conduits. I tried and I liked running several minor conduits solo in phase 1 Invasion. But then there were roaming patrols. My risk management apparatus told me it’s not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Aramatheia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aramatheia/32/383412_2.png) [@Aramatheia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aramatheia)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/925 "2020-08-20T17:15:08Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > > [@Siegfried\_Tahl](#): > > > > A quote from a dev talk I posted earlier “Being a ‘loner’ implies and requires other people - namely those which are being avoided.” > > But that goes back to my original point: if your goal is to avoid other players why play an MMO when the genre makes significant sacrifices in gameplay quality to enable its multiplayer features? The PvE activities themselves are menial farming nonsense, they only become interesting when you add other players (whether as enemies or allies). Playing solo isntt necessarily avoiding players because they will always be aroound its rare finding a system with just yourself in local. That one guy who enters could very well be doing the same activity as me and suddenly im stepping up to my A game to beat him out of taking the commander kill or just ninjaing it from under me. Another playing attempting to blow up my ship isnt the only encounter with other players and it shouldnt be. This isnt just a big space brawler, its a big space whatever. If the guy hopping into “my” site wants to shoot at me then fine i dont suggest thats wrong and needs to be deleted. But on the flip side why should someone who only wants to blow up my ship sit there and feel that i shouldnt be playing the game at all because i wasnt trying to blow him up from day 1? i hit undock whatever happens after that is the name of the game. if i can accept that why can the hardcore pvp person not do the same? If they take offense then get out there and gank site runners. Dont just say they shouldnt be there to begin with. Also Sandbox means “whatever”, its a box, with sand. You can make a sandcastle or you can break a sandcastle. If no one was making sandcastles thered be none to break. Alot of people hold the non blowing-up-players aspect in such contempt but they all play a part in the game. I mean that eve “butterfly effect” cinematic which is heavily based on pvp ultimately starts with a player interacting with a mining barge. ---
**Author:** ![Vortigern\_Vitalis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vortigern_vitalis/32/455600_2.png) [@Vortigern\_Vitalis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vortigern_Vitalis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741/926 "2020-08-20T17:27:12Z")
Quite. I remember an incident about a year ago when a character who is a prominent testosterone fuelled commentator on these fora stole the loot from a site Commander that one of my alphas had just destroyed. Not content with flashing yellow, then bombarded me with taunts, trying to goad me into doing something silly in retaliation - my young alpha vs his main. It was very amusing how salty (to nick their favourite phrase) he got when I politely told him I was not going to bite, and invited him to enjoy his silly little loot. Did I think he should not be there? No. Did I resent him? No. Just one of those things. And I reckon I “won” that exchange because he was more interested in baiting an alpha and getting an easy kill, than he was in the loot itself. Furthermore, he wasted over thirty minutes trying to wind me up, when he could have been going after a more naive and vulnerable victim, so further point to me. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741.md?page=35) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/discussion-of-the-implications-of-niarjas-invasion/260741.md?page=37)