# Do Any CCP Developers Even Pay Attention To This? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 14, 2020, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874 "2020-09-14T10:32:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/89 "2020-09-15T20:22:13Z")
Because they they won’t be able to tell their friends that they’re playing a hardcore PvP game that only highly skilled, competitive gamers can survive. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/90 "2020-09-15T20:23:07Z")
Thank you, well summarized. m ---
**Author:** ![Corporal\_Punishment08](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corporal_punishment08/32/190221_2.png) [@Corporal\_Punishment08](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corporal_Punishment08)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/91 "2020-09-15T20:41:30Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > CCP is shaking up Eve. This was telegraphed loud and clear by management last year. What happened to CalMil went far beyond “shaking things up.” > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > But to your question, Faction Warfare has bigger problems than the Triglavians. The whole thing needs plenty of work, but the Invasion isn’t there to do that. It is to shake people out of their ruts, apply some pressure and make room for things to happen. Old systems, dynamics and groups will be strained or even break, but that makes room for new growth. This came at the exact time that CalMil was shaking people out of their ruts and making room for things to happen. That is our gripe. We did and were doing what we were always led to believe EVE was about; PVP, conquering, taking the fight to others, planning and forethought, long-term goal oriented approaches, etc, and with one fell swoop of a keyboard in Iceland we lost it all. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > That is all bigger than “CalMil”. Once things settle, new things can happen and while I don’t know CCP’s super secret plans, redrawing the map via this Invasion is just step one of new things coming. Maybe that is a revamp of Faction War, or a replacement, but it is definitely due for some love. I wholeheartedly agree that FW was broken, but as you say, this was not the way to address the issues with FW. FW operates like a capture the flag type game, but serves an incredibly important function above that, which is getting people out of their PVE grooves and into some PVP content. The invasion disproportionately affected CalMil’s efforts to do exactly what we were always told to do: get out there and PVP. So in other words, it penalised players trying to play the game as intended. hmm > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > We aren’t in the dark. Look at the link above, or the blogs posted by CCP Ratatti and the ecosystem team. Funny, because the CSM commenting here confirmed as much: > [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > I have, they have, I cannot tell you until they tell you. We, the CSM, are still trying to get them to modify the plan. > [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > New Eden hasn’t been this alive in a decade and it promises to only get better. Given the numbers, I would tend to disagree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/92 "2020-09-15T20:46:13Z")
> [@ExcalibursTemplar](#): > > The average player count for the last 6 months is 33k, for the last month it was 24k, that’s nearly a 30% drop in active players Did you look at the last 6 month’s month by month by chance. I think you’ll find the 6 month graph drops data points in order to calculate. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/93 "2020-09-15T21:04:43Z")
> [@Corporal\_Punishment08](#): > > Given the numbers, I would tend to disagree with you. I don’t know what “numbers” you are looking at but activity metrics are up; > **[DOTLAN EveMaps: Recent Statistics](https://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats)** > > DOTLAN EveMaps is the leading online/interactive map/alliance/corporation resource database for Eve Online and even much abused eve-offline doesn’t show any real drop. But ok, how ‘alive’ New Eden feels is pretty subjective and you are entitled to feel about the game however you want. I’d suggest though you frame that as your opinion rather than trying invoke numbers you don’t actually have as some sort of evidence that “Eve is dying” and you must be right. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/94 "2020-09-15T21:22:36Z")
> [@Corporal\_Punishment08](#): > > but the main issue was that the invasion happened so quickly and Caldari ships were useless (which is of course what every CalMil had trained up for) Player flown Caldari ships are not useless. Correct use of ecm and support modules makes them very effective actually. This is a terrible excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Gabriel\_Eban](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gabriel_eban/32/308946_2.png) [@Gabriel\_Eban](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gabriel_Eban)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/95 "2020-09-15T21:53:51Z")
Okay. Let me see. That comes out to 50% of 0 which is… _starts tapping button on the calculator_ All in good fun. However (full disclosure) I also oppose the CSM. So there is that. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/96 "2020-09-15T21:54:34Z")
Listen bro, I am a highly experienced designer (ironically i am coding a game as we speak) and i have worked as a dev in the industry for two decades (ish). I have told them many, many times that "most of the players are pve oriented and do not want to be forced into pvp situations, and that high sec needs to be more supportive of that and not force illegal criminal based pvp, and support more group-related pve (like removing the “splitting” of isk income from missions / ratting and giving everyone equal income). They do not listen. You are totally right about the game population dropping, but its much worse then you think. Actually around 40% of the population is Alts. So that number of “online” that you see is actually almost half alt accounts. It alone is a serious problem, and complex to deal with because it impacts the games income. here is the thing, the games design is being pushed by the CSM members to favor pushing new players into nullsec, to feed their empires. Now im a null player and a pvper and i enjoy this part of the game, but as a designer i recognize the serious issues here. The problem is this will never change until ccp wakes up and kicks all of them off the csm for a year or two and fills the entire csm with high sec players, ones advocating removal of suicide ganking and the various types of abuse. and this is not even touching highly speculative topics like how the retention rates are bad because of massive training times (when the rest of the industry has learned 38 hours from start to finish is the magic number). The problem is i know the industry standards and i am slightly worried about eve implementing them, but i know its the only chance this game has to live. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/97 "2020-09-15T21:57:28Z")
Why don’t you focus all of your energy on your upcoming game, rather than wasting your time trying to educate these CCP guys, who clearly do not value your input? ---
**Author:** ![Corporal\_Punishment08](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corporal_punishment08/32/190221_2.png) [@Corporal\_Punishment08](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corporal_Punishment08)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/98 "2020-09-15T21:59:24Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > But ok, how ‘alive’ New Eden feels is pretty subjective and you are entitled to feel about the game however you want. I’d suggest though you frame that as your opinion rather than trying invoke numbers you don’t actually have as some sort of evidence that “Eve is dying” and you must be right. Never said the game was dying and I never said I must be right. Reviewing some stats for August 2020 vs August 2019 (can’t use September but, judging for the numbers, it looks like September might be significantly more active than September 2019), you’re right that there is an uptick in activity. You are absolutely correct and I was wrong. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Player flown Caldari ships are not useless. Correct use of ecm and support modules makes them very effective actually. > This is a terrible excuse. They absolutely were crashing and burning spectacularly against the Trigs at the time. By the time we were able to adapt, it was over. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/99 "2020-09-15T21:59:39Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > ones advocating removal of the various types of abuse. So you believe that people like yourself who ran scam corporations in highsec where you preyed on newbies who didn’t know any better for personal gain should be banned! Great to hear! In other news, if you are actually developing a game yourself, any advice you give has a conflict of interest, and if any post you make harms EVE you could be liable for legal action around defamation, so you probably shouldn’t post here if that is actually true. Basic professionalism should stop you posting even. ---
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/100 "2020-09-15T21:59:56Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > highly speculative topics like how the retention rates are bad because of massive training times (when the rest of the industry has learned 38 hours from start to finish is the magic number). What’s the average industry retention rate? We know that Eves is around 2% of those that actually login after creating an account. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/102 "2020-09-15T22:02:59Z")
Criminal mischief! GUILTY! You are hereby sentenced to one year of probation! ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/105 "2020-09-15T22:06:05Z")
What, you don’t think developers of one game badmouthing another game (which theyve claimed in the past will be a competitor after release) with verifiably false claims isn’t actually a legal matter? This isn’t talking about personal opinions, this is someone clearly making incorrect claims repeatedly, even after they’ve been given the actual numbers so ignorance isn’t even an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Xeux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xeux/32/428022_2.png) [@Xeux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xeux)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/107 "2020-09-15T22:07:44Z")
I’m not sure there is any democratic process that can overcome the organizational advantages of the blue donut. ---
**Author:** ![Noori\_Naarian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/noori_naarian/32/261285_2.png) [@Noori\_Naarian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Noori_Naarian)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/109 "2020-09-15T22:08:53Z")
> [@Lucas\_Kell](#): > > The main problem with the CSM is how it’s elected. It’s easy for large groups to manipulate their way into power. If you look you will see that often 3-4 people on the csm are from the same political body. As i said, 1 person per a section of space (null, low etc) will fix this mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/112 "2020-09-15T22:14:19Z")
> [@Corporal\_Punishment08](#): > > They absolutely were crashing and burning spectacularly against the Trigs at the time. By the time we were able to adapt, it was over Without knowing what your fleet doctrine was, yeah, can’t really help too much with insight and I’m sure by now you’ve figured out any holes you did have. I do know early invasions there was an effective drake fleet used at some, I think it moved onto an arty fleet due to the PvP nature to alpha through reps with lower fleet sizes, but if you’ve the numbers a ferox based fleet should be amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/118 "2020-09-15T22:30:09Z")
Okay, well, hurry up and release already. All of us here are chomping at the bit to play your game, after you’ve hyped it up so much in between all the rage-posting you’ve been doing. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/120 "2020-09-15T22:32:56Z")
> [@Noori\_Naarian](#): > > BTW, Some highly successful games have been made with unity Yes, but there is zero reason whatsoever to believe that yours will be one of them. You clearly don’t understand game design, and you’ve done nothing to show that you’ve ever made anything beyond daydreaming about how cool it would be to make a game. > CCP can prevent this. Lolwut? How exactly are they going to prevent things that happen entirely outside of EVE or any CCP-controlled infrastructure? Is your proposal that CCP removes any CSM member that agrees with a nullsec proposal because they clearly must be on the nullsec payroll? ---
**Author:** ![Gabriel\_Eban](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gabriel_eban/32/308946_2.png) [@Gabriel\_Eban](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gabriel_Eban)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874/121 "2020-09-15T22:33:01Z")
I will say that I don’t see any way to get a balanced CSM that represents each area fairly. It’s hard enough in real life but EVE has the problem where that (just a random example)“great WH candidate” is just an alt character for an opposing group. We are all fully aware that the null voting block is what it is, they meta game that unbalanced access, and it disenfranchises the bulk of players in the rest of the game. There doesn’t seem to be a winning answer for that. As for the long term picture of EVE, I’m not fully convinced CCP isn’t moving to just becoming World of Tanks with space ships. I also think that, despite what the forums say, there are probably a lot of players who would be happy with that. I’m not one of them. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-any-ccp-developers-even-pay-attention-to-this/266874.md?page=6)