# Do Caldari State citizens retain their status in Empyrean organizations? **URL:** \ **Category:** EVE Lore Discussion\ **Tags:** caldari\ **Created:** [April 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091 "2018-04-11T16:43:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Heiwari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/heiwari/32/489692_2.png) [@Heiwari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Heiwari)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/1 "2018-04-11T16:43:08Z")
Hi and apologies if this is a common question. With the Caldari seemingly stringent and/or fickle about citizenship as determined by meritocratic values, I’m curious how the State treats capsuleers who don’t join official organizations and instead ‘split’ their loyalty to a private faction like player corps and alliances. Could it be treated like a contract where the Caldari corporate citizen is merely on loan according to arbitrary terms? How much would it matter to the State if the function of that organization is counter to State interests? I’m asking from the “Patriot” perspective, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/2 "2018-04-11T18:08:02Z")
I have no idea but I know a few people who might know. /summon @Pieter_Tuulinen @Makoto_Priano @Samira_Kernher ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/3 "2018-04-11T18:25:59Z")
Ohai! So, the answer is, “well, it gets messy.” Independent capsuleers are given wide latitude, and so aren’t likely subject to the same pressures and punishment normal citizens would be. After all, independent starship captains are, by definition, independent and so can’t be threatened with Disassociation in the same way. There are ‘graduation paper’ documents that players get for completing certain intro arcs that confirm that they’re regarded as ‘still a part of their parent empire,’ but largely outside the law. [http://games.chruker.dk/eve\_online/item.php?type\_id=3838](http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=3838) \<== an old ‘graduation document’ sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Heiwari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/heiwari/32/489692_2.png) [@Heiwari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Heiwari)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/4 "2018-04-11T22:24:44Z")
Very nice, thanks. So the bureaucracy is also a key factor, providing a legal shield for the megacorp and pilot both. Clever. I wonder how the red tape itself could play into this darwinistic professional environment. Something to consider in future, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Makoto\_Priano](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makoto_priano/32/383919_2.png) [@Makoto\_Priano](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makoto_Priano)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/5 "2018-04-11T22:40:14Z")
Yep! Of course, that’s the ‘standard’ situation. To a very real degree, the size of New Eden mean there will be plenty of exceptions to the standard. The trick is just to avoid being too snowflake-y and claiming things that actively conflict with the shared world, like being a CalNav operative, or a CONCORD agent, or such things. While people will roll with it to some degree, it’s impossible to back up if someone challenges you. :x That said, there are a lot of folk who play loyalists with a much closer hew to the norms of their faction than the fluff indicates is necessary, and those who employ it consistently do quite well! And as for bureacracy, what I’d say is this: consider contract law as much weapon as tool. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Korsavius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/korsavius/32/391994_2.png) [@Korsavius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Korsavius)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 4:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/6 "2018-04-12T04:39:47Z")
Unless CCP has retconned anything along this topic in the past few years, it would appear that State citizens who become capsuleers do retain their citizenship status with their respective mega. [Refer to this IG news release some years ago during the latter stages of Heth’s regime.](https://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/anti-provist-rally-sparks-civil-unrest-on-malkalen-v/) It mentions a capsuleer, a non-Caldari bloodline one at that, to be a “State citizen.” And like Makoto mentioned earlier, it would appear that such capsuleers do indeed operate largely outside the law. ---
**Author:** ![Tavin\_Aikisen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tavin_aikisen/32/378349_2.png) [@Tavin\_Aikisen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tavin_Aikisen)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/7 "2018-04-12T12:32:51Z")
Not to mention some of the CEOs of the big eight are/were capsuleers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/8 "2018-04-13T06:37:29Z")
> [@Makoto\_Priano](#): > > Yep! Of course, that’s the ‘standard’ situation. To a very real degree, the size of New Eden mean there will be plenty of exceptions to the standard. The trick is just to avoid being too snowflake-y and claiming things that actively conflict with the shared world, like being a CalNav operative, or a CONCORD agent, or such things. While people will roll with it to some degree, it’s impossible to back up if someone challenges you. :x > > That said, there are a lot of folk who play loyalists with a much closer hew to the norms of their faction than the fluff indicates is necessary, and those who employ it consistently do quite well! > > And as for bureacracy, what I’d say is this: consider contract law as much weapon as tool. 😉 If someone wanted to roleplay as a Caldari Navy officer, then I would not try to argue with them. This whole “Oooh it’s not in the game mechanics” stuff is only going on in Eve, it doesn’t happen in other RP games, and it’s amateur ■■■■■■■■. Everytime I see Sansha or Blood Raiders being called out because they get shot at by NPC pirates, I groan, and I usually ignore that person’s roleplaying forever. I just can’t respect people who do not treat roleplaying as what it actually is: Improv theatre. I mean, do people think this neurotic nitpicking is _fun_? It’s ■■■■■■■ theatre, not a competition to out someone for not having technical data in order on CCP’s servers. If someone says they are a research organization, I take them for their word. The same goes for the various Khanid Navy, Caldari Navy and all the Pirate Faction corps members I have run into. CCP _themselves_ will treat a player exactly as they present themselves. Coreli corporation members get invitations to Serpentis events because they _are_ Serpentis, essentially. Just because a lone wolf player hasn’t been officially stamped on the head with the CCP magick RP approval stamp doesn’t mean they are not legitimate. This is exactly the sort of elitism that breeds contempt for people who are high profile and have been recognized. It is absolutely disgusting and doesn’t represent the spirit of true roleplay. For example, if someone wanted to argue that Samira Kernher was not a legitimate vassal to House Ardishapur, via her Holder hierarchy, just because she doesn’t have “House Ardishapur” officially stamped into her character profile, that someone would be an asshole, and not a good roleplayer. Once you go down this unfun nitpicky road to roleplaying, it never ends. For example, because someone is a Brutor traditionalist they have to fight for Amarr proper? What if they were, say, born in wormhole space on a Sisters of Eve vessel and were picked up by the Society of Conscious Thought? Is someone going to call me on that because it doesn’t say “SOCT” on my bio? Falcon had a loyalty thread on the old forums for a reason - the game mechanics are limited, and he and his team know this. Why Eve players don’t understand this is completely beyond me. There’s a simple in game answer to all of this stuff: capsuleers are _special_ But if they say they are something, then play along. That’s actually where we can have some fun. ---
**Author:** ![Tavin\_Aikisen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tavin_aikisen/32/378349_2.png) [@Tavin\_Aikisen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tavin_Aikisen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/9 "2018-04-14T03:14:33Z")
> Everytime I see Sansha or Blood Raiders being called out because they get shot at by NPC pirates, I groan, and I usually ignore that person’s roleplaying forever. That’s a little unfair. If gameplay mechanics aren’t assisting with suspension of disbelief, you’re going to blame the player who no longer feels immersed because a players words are contradicted by everything the game presents? I have friends who claim to be Sansha, roleplay Sansha, and I honestly wish the game would actually let them properly BE Sansha, it’s hard to immerse yourself when we’re trying to convince each other because everything on screen is making a mess of it. This is the fault of game design, not players. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/10 "2018-04-14T04:10:18Z")
Frankly. I have to disagree with you. Claiming to be a loyalist or a believer is fine. But claiming to actually be in the direct organisation chain of an npc organisation while not getting any info, any support, not having to obey any orders, not getting locked into npc standings, and not having any consequences for inappropriate behaviour is bs and borders on God mode rp to where you are claiming control over npcs. However claiming to be sani sabik and a believer in the blood raiders. Go right ahead. You can do exactly the same actions based off being a believer/loyalist without needing to claim you are actually in the hierarchy. And loyalists would still get invites now and then to things. And that is known as tempering your roleplay for the immersion of others. Which creates a more consistent experience overall for everyone. And makes everyone have more fun at rp. (ok. There is always one exception) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/11 "2018-04-14T16:47:54Z")
And this exactly why I only roleplay with regular players, and not RP snobs. I follow the rules of RP snobs, but I certainly don’t consider myself one, as it’s bad for roleplaying and it’s boring anyways. There’s also the fact that CCP _often_ holds special events for roleplay corps, so it could be that someone actually _has_ met Sansha Kuvakei, that someone in Coreli _has_ actually been acknowledged in Serpentis hierarchy. CCP Falcon is a very busy guy. I always assume good faith. So yep I disagree with both of you and I will carry on as I have before. It’s not a nice thing to do to our fellow roleplayers (some of whom may not have been roleplaying for 20+ years in a MUD/Forum enviroment as I have) and it discourages newbies from joining us. ---
**Author:** ![Tavin\_Aikisen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tavin_aikisen/32/378349_2.png) [@Tavin\_Aikisen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tavin_Aikisen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/12 "2018-04-14T22:51:52Z")
> I always assume good faith. So yep I disagree with both of you and I will carry on as I have before. It’s not a nice thing to do to our fellow roleplayers (some of whom may not have been roleplaying for 20+ years in a MUD/Forum enviroment as I have) and it discourages newbies from joining us. Okay, so if I start roleplaying as a Klingon, are you going to accept that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/13 "2018-04-14T23:37:57Z")
That has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Tavin\_Aikisen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tavin_aikisen/32/378349_2.png) [@Tavin\_Aikisen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tavin_Aikisen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/14 "2018-04-14T23:43:35Z")
> That has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, and you know it. Why doesn’t it? If the topic has shifted towards what’s acceptable to roleplayer’s perceptions… ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/15 "2018-04-14T23:52:05Z")
> [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](#): > > This whole “Oooh it’s not in the game mechanics” stuff is only going on in Eve, it doesn’t happen in other RP games, and it’s amateur ■■■■■■■■. Had to grab a hold of this one: Nope, it has gone on pretty much any MMORPG I’ve played. Specifically, claiming to be a race or class / profession not available in game WILL get you harped on in other games just as well, unless things have changed - might’ve, haven’t played other momurpegers than EVE in a couple of years now. Of course, most people will often roll with it, to a point, like they do in this game as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/16 "2018-04-14T23:52:57Z")
Again, a comment having nothing to do with what I’m speaking of… ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/17 "2018-04-14T23:55:12Z")
On the contrary, I don’t think you can claim that “oh, this kind of RP nitpickery only happens in EVE, EVE players are stupid”, when it pretty much happens in any game. Look, I do agree with most of your sentiments, I do, but sounds like you’re on a crusade of some kind right now. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/the_golden_serpent/32/79734_2.png) [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/The_Golden_Serpent)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/18 "2018-04-14T23:56:22Z")
Erm, please don’t put words in my mouth…I never said any of the things you’ve put into quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Blades](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sterling_blades/32/323876_2.png) [@Sterling\_Blades](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sterling_Blades)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/19 "2018-04-15T00:00:06Z")
I believe Teinyhr was paraphrasing what you said? ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091/20 "2018-04-15T00:01:56Z")
> [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](#): > > Erm, please don’t put words in my mouth…I never said any of the things you’ve put into quotes. > [@The\_Golden\_Serpent](#): > > This whole “Oooh it’s not in the game mechanics” stuff is only going on in Eve, it doesn’t happen in other RP games, and it’s amateur ■■■■■■■■. But you did? Maybe not those exact words, but you gotta admit, that’s what they sound like, especially when you start piling on terms like “RP snobs”. I’m not a RP snob, but even my suspension of disbelief potion runs out sometimes. Particularly I have, due to past experiences, problem with people who try to lord over other people’s RP. I believe we share this same feeling, yes? EDIT: I feel we probably need another topic not to mess up this one further, but I think the “state of RP community” threads usually devolve into flaming and often get send in to digital hell by moderation teams. [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/do-caldari-state-citizens-retain-their-status-in-empyrean-organizations/69091.md?page=2)