# Economy and Trading Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327 "2024-01-07T00:46:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Nijushiho](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/doctor_nijushiho/32/385189_2.png) [@Doctor\_Nijushiho](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Doctor_Nijushiho)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 2:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/109 "2024-01-09T02:45:07Z")
If OP was a .01 ISK station day trader who is now unhappy, now instead you get to run a lottery where people stupidly by scratch off tickets for ships that they will never win. ---
**Author:** ![Hyrja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hyrja/32/412180_2.png) [@Hyrja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hyrja)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/110 "2024-01-09T02:50:53Z")
I like the 50% buyer cores ones. Odds favor the house there. Some I came across in angel fw…this is how they make money. If they keep on winning their ship back…it keeps on making isk lol. While I know we have this since somner blink and such rmt fiascos…blink as far as I recall never rigged their own lotteries like this. They had that going for them at least. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/111 "2024-01-09T13:38:23Z")
> [@Hyrja](#): > > . If they keep on winning their ship back…it keeps on making isk lol. Not at all. The system is negative sum, so what is gained is less than what is paid. So if they gain more by buying their own tickets, it means they lose money in the first place. Which is not the idea of being the house. ---
**Author:** ![Done25](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/done25/32/494511_2.png) [@Done25](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Done25)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/112 "2024-01-09T14:48:05Z")
T1 Fequency Crystals should wear out like any other ammo supply. It’s weird how they’re the only ammo in the game to not do so. (As far as I know.) ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/113 "2024-01-09T18:00:01Z")
Not sure why you’re tossing a reply about T1 ammo usage in here, but you appear to be only thinking about ship weapons that actually expend ammo and assuming all weapon systems must do the same. Smartbombs. Drones. Lasers don’t fire a shell, they focus energy. Lasers consume capacitor, not ammo. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/114 "2024-01-09T18:07:55Z")
Laser lenses transform energy and therefore their efficiency is not 100% . For low intensity transformation this may not be an issue , but for high intensity (the area where the beam starts) this can be, especially in space without a good cooling system. Typically they may accept more output at the cost of less duration. So I don’t think there is an issue with the lenses wearing out. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Epeen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mr_epeen/32/373308_2.png) [@Mr\_Epeen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mr_Epeen)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/115 "2024-01-09T18:18:17Z")
# [Economy and Trading Dead](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327) Trading the dead is pretty niche. I don’t think it affects the economy much. Mr Epeen 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Done25](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/done25/32/494511_2.png) [@Done25](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Done25)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/116 "2024-01-09T19:38:28Z")
The T2/faction version wear out. It’s weird how the T1s don’t. And it matters, in my mind, because ammo is supposed to be an ISK sink. A small one, but one that does exist for all the other “standard” turret/launcher types. PS. I wouldn’t be against seeing Smartbombs degrade/run out of use over time either. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/117 "2024-01-09T19:48:56Z")
Hard pass on smartbombs degrading over time… ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/118 "2024-01-09T19:49:18Z")
That’s not what an isk sink is. I think you meant, a recurring cost. ---
**Author:** ![Done25](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/done25/32/494511_2.png) [@Done25](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Done25)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/119 "2024-01-09T19:53:15Z")
Essentially the same thing as far as I’m aware. A sink being anything that helps to reliably drain money back out of the economy. (Such as market taxes) ---
**Author:** ![Aisha\_Katalen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aisha_katalen/32/387724_2.png) [@Aisha\_Katalen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aisha_Katalen)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/120 "2024-01-09T19:54:42Z")
Ammo cost isn’t an isk sink. ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/121 "2024-01-09T19:56:21Z")
It’s definitely not the same. That’s why I think you meant recurring cost, and not isk sink. The former making sense in that context, the later not. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/122 "2024-01-09T20:20:42Z")
> [@Done25](#): > > The T2/faction version wear out. It’s weird how the T1s don’t. It isn’t really about the physics or the consistency or the “RL analogy” or whatever. The point is to differentiate the weapons, so they each have different styles of usage that makes for interesting choices. Some have big alpha, some high DPS but short range, some take up a lot of cargo space for reloads, and some consume capacitor rather than ‘ammo’ and take little cargo space. Games are far more interesting when you can make actually meaningful choices, rather than boiling everything down to 54 different flavors of vanilla. ‘A foolish consistency…’ and all that. EVE doesn’t need everything broken down to all fit in the exact same spreadsheet. ---
**Author:** ![Arthur\_Aihaken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arthur_aihaken/32/504104_2.png) [@Arthur\_Aihaken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arthur_Aihaken)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/123 "2024-01-09T20:28:44Z")
Does anyone really use T1 crystals though? ---
**Author:** ![stefnia\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/stefnia_freir/32/390048_2.png) [@stefnia\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/stefnia_Freir)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/124 "2024-01-09T20:40:54Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > meaningful choices, MEANINGFUL When the T1 crystal don’t wear off but they are useless anyhow, it’s not a MEANINGFUL choice. > [@Arthur\_Aihaken](#): > > Does anyone really use T1 crystals though? I guess people who believe a few k isk is worth more than their real life time do. "It’s more efficient !!! ". Losers. I mean I always have standard and mf ones just in case… but in reality I never use them. ---
**Author:** ![Rail\_J\_kar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rail_j_kar/32/374429_2.png) [@Rail\_J\_kar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rail_J_kar)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/125 "2024-01-09T20:43:49Z")
Yes. If the things you’re killing are low level, there’s not a ton of reason to use t2 or faction crystals. Plus, you know, new players without t2 skills. - they exist too. That said, I do have a weapon concept for a khanid plasma thrower that would degrade t1 crystals and t2/faction at double the rate. Would effectively be a missile that uses capacitor. As for the conversation about ammo being an isk sink. It only functions as one when it’s traded (market taxes) or produced (production fees.) Any crystals that are looted personally or direct traded wont have any fees attached to them and thus wont function as an isk sink. T1 crystals already are used in production though, so you don’t really have to be concerned about there being too many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Hyrja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hyrja/32/412180_2.png) [@Hyrja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hyrja)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/126 "2024-01-10T02:28:45Z")
Ammo can work out to be profit even. Some named gear drops sell for crap prices. I pile these up, melt them down and make ammo from them. “Free mins” debate is not really applying imo. Oh no, I free min’d an item melt down worth 8K on sell order lol. ---
**Author:** ![Vizkomaru\_Togashi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vizkomaru_togashi/32/464153_2.png) [@Vizkomaru\_Togashi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vizkomaru_Togashi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/127 "2024-01-10T23:53:54Z")
But you realize there are several workaround about the taxes and issues right? There is a skill called “Advanced broker relations” which reduce the relist fee down to 20%. And the listings spam was a serious issue to anyone who wasn’t a trader and wanted to sell using an order rather than buy the raw vultures price. As in real life, you use trade hubs instead of free trading everywhere for simple reasons which most of the times are meant to make the trade better as a system, not to ease the system to everyone. If EVE trade system gets broken or dead, the whole community and developers will get in shock to the point the game won’t be able to continue that way. Which won’t happen. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2024, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327/128 "2024-01-11T00:11:48Z")
> [@Vizkomaru\_Togashi](#): > > And the listings spam was a serious issue to anyone who wasn’t a trader and wanted to sell using an order rather than buy the raw vultures price. It still is. Nothing changed in that regard. If you make a sell order in a hub, you’ll still get undercut within minutes by a bot, because even with the higher fees, it still makes more mathematical sense to undercut than to wait your turn to sell your items. Even if you update your order 50 times in one day and end up selling your items for 75% of their market value, it _still_ makes more mathematical sense. That’s just the way things are. The fees are purely for the sake of creating the game’s only viable ISK sink, and not for combating bots. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/economy-and-trading-dead/435327.md?page=7)