# Encouraging Highsec Player Conflict and Interaction **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [June 19, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111 "2020-06-19T17:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/21 "2020-06-21T18:11:33Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > If players that are going to leave the game from getting suspect baited, or whatever, are going to leave anyways because of whatever other reason, then that is obviously something to consider during design. It could mean anything from ‘this person doesn’t really want to play eve as we want to make it’ to ‘there is more than one issue to fix for this person’. But to ignore it completely as a consideration is plain stupid. IF … That’s to be proven before being used as an argument. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Demonstrably un-true. No it’s correct. If you are destroyed or stolen good, as a new player, it can be devastating in term of ratio of assets lost and a reason good enough to leave the game. Reason why suspect baiting is forbidden in starter system (and yet you can see some people doing it) And yes, most experienced players will just ignore you and your obvious trap. By experienced, I mean experienced with the mechanisms and how to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/22 "2020-06-21T18:35:30Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No it’s correct. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > it can be devastating in term of ratio of assets lost and a reason good enough to leave the game. CAN… > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s to be proven before being used as an argument. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > And yes, most experienced players will just ignore you and your obvious trap. So not ALL? The same way most experienced players can avoid a gank or most experienced players can handle a dec. Or most experienced players can identify a scam. Just because most players choose not to engage does not mean it’s bad for the game as a whole. Clearly it wasn’t in the years leading upto 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/23 "2020-06-21T18:37:32Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So not ALL? Yes indeed, I am not making an absolute statement. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The same way most experienced players can avoid a gank or most experienced players can handle a dec. Hu, no. Literally no, for decs. That’s the reason CCP removed them : they were literally making people leave the game. Just like most of the theft and destruction that is forced upon people. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/24 "2020-06-21T19:32:06Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > That’s the reason CCP removed them : they were literally making people leave the game. Corps. Player activity went down after the last wardec changes and didn’t recover until half the world went into lockdown. CCP didn’t do much research into player behaviour around decs and they certainly didn’t engage the knowledgeable side of the playerbase before changing decs. If you want to know what a hatchet job looks like… ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/25 "2020-06-21T19:38:25Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Corps. No, the game. You don’t get it. If people are not invested in the game, they just leave. If people are at threat of losing their assets for no reason, they just leave. That’s the reality. People left the game in BO because this was too much “destruction”. People left the game when wardecced for the same reason. Force the destruction and people will just leave. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/26 "2020-06-21T20:27:20Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > That is not the suggestion, the suggestion is just to remove the ore bay so that players have to move the ore. Right now having the ore go directly to the ore hold is the ENABLER for AFK mining. Given most of their cargo bays can’t accommodate a single laser cycle you **have to** increase the basic cargo. Which is expandable and all that other good stuff. So the suggestion, like your comment, is not thought out. Procs and Covetors only hold a couple cycles. These ships already offload their ore to cans or a hauler. Deleting the ore bay just breaks the ship. Try thinking next time. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/27 "2020-06-21T20:38:38Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No, the game. Link? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You don’t get it. If people are not invested in the game, they just leave. If people are at threat of losing their assets for no reason, they just leave. > > That’s the reality. The reason they aren’t invested is that they have no stake in the game. Making peoples stuff vulnerable solves that. As for people leaving if their assets are at a threat for no reason, what does that mean? I’ve lost stuff for no reason and I’m still here. And how does the losses occured during wardec or can flipping have any less meaning behind it than my losses? Or anyone elses who’s still playing? You say it’s the reality but it has no basis in fact. Otherwise how is anyone with any losses still here? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > People left the game when wardecced for the same reason. > Force the destruction and people will just leave. Demonstrably un-true. Forced destruction has been and still is in eve since its creation. You’ve stopped making any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/28 "2020-06-21T20:41:38Z")
> [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > Try thinking next time. Don’t hold your breath … You need to provide him more numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/29 "2020-06-21T20:43:34Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The reason they aren’t invested is that they have no stake in the game. Making peoples stuff vulnerable solves that. Your conceit that miner’s stuff is not vulnerable is just that, a conceit. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/30 "2020-06-21T20:48:13Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The reason they aren’t invested is that they have no stake in the game. No it’s not. Having more stakes to lose makes the game more of a hassle and less of a game. You are not invested in a game to not lose something. You are invested to win something. If the game takes your time and you get nothing in return, then you just leave for something better. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > I’ve lost stuff for no reason and I’m still here. It just means that you are despaired for anything better. People crave for hope, not for fear. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Otherwise how is anyone with any losses still here? Unrelated. This has no relation to the topic, which is “increasing the destruction leads to people leaving”, which is a fact established by CCP after testing it. (cf BO) > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Demonstrably un-true. > > Forced destruction has been and still is in eve since its creation. Unrelated. you are just completely off topic. No wonder it makes no sense to you. I wrote “FORCE the destruction”, not “forced destruction”. Force is a verb, meaning I am talking about an action, in that case from CCP, in order to FORCE the destruction in the game . For example, BO was an action to FORCE the destruction and it succeeded, until the amount of players was so low CCP decided they had learnt their lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/31 "2020-06-21T20:54:19Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You are invested to win something. Nonsense. By that standard CCP would maximize player counts and investment if they removed all PvP and made level 1 mission NPCs pay out 100 billion ISK per kill. Everyone would be winning massive amounts of wealth, so surely they would be as invested as possible and EVE would thrive? Of course not. Having high stakes and loss is what makes EVE successful, because when you do win it actually means something. You can look back at the adversity you faced and see that you earned your success by more than just paying your $15/month and passively receiving rewards. > cf BO You mean the experiment where a bunch of RMT botters ragequit over not being able to bot effectively and CCP panicked over the drop in subscription revenue? Don’t confuse that with the behavior of normal players. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/32 "2020-06-21T20:56:26Z")
> [@Merin\_Ryskin](#): > > Nonsense. By that standard CCP would maximize player counts and investment if they removed all PvP and made level 1 mission NPCs pay out 100 billion ISK per kill. Everyone would be winning massive amounts of wealth, so surely they would be as invested as possible and EVE would thrive? No, that just means you are not able to understand the notion of relative value But from someone claiming that there is no RMT in Eve, I’m not really surprised. So again, there is no real interest in trying to explain such a basic thing to you. ---
**Author:** ![Merin\_Ryskin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/merin_ryskin/32/259354_2.png) [@Merin\_Ryskin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Merin_Ryskin)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/33 "2020-06-21T20:57:56Z")
> [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > No, that just means you are not able to understand the notion of relative value And guess what relative value requires: risk and loss. You can’t have relative value if everyone is winning. > But from someone claiming that there is no RMT in Eve From a lying asshole like you I expect nothing else. I never said that there is no RMT in EVE, in fact I was very clear that there _is_ RMT in EVE. So STFU with your blatant lying and trolling. ---
**Author:** ![Anderson\_Geten](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anderson_geten/32/390041_2.png) [@Anderson\_Geten](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anderson_Geten)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/34 "2020-06-21T20:59:03Z")
yes, I understand, there is no RMT in Eve in your world. ktxhbye. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 9:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/35 "2020-06-21T21:55:08Z")
> [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > Your conceit that miner’s stuff is not vulnerable is just that, a conceit. Could you elaborate? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Having more stakes to lose makes the game more of a hassle and less of a game. How? Have you never heard another player say this game is better because losses are _real_? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > You are not invested in a game to not lose something. You are invested to win something. Not losing something is a victory in itself. See any escort mission in any game. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > People crave for hope, not for fear. People enjoy both. See horror segments of games. > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Unrelated. This has no relation to the topic, which is “increasing the destruction leads to people leaving”, which is a fact established by CCP after testing it. (cf BO) Then why are we increasing destruction now with the final trig invasion, surgical strike and the agenda to rebalance risk/reward to less rewards/more risk? > [@Anderson\_Geten](#): > > Unrelated. you are just completely off topic. No wonder it makes no sense to you. > I wrote “FORCE the destruction”, not “forced destruction”. Force is a verb, meaning I am talking about an action, in that case from CCP, in order to FORCE the destruction in the game . For example, BO was an action to FORCE the destruction and it succeeded, until the amount of players was so low CCP decided they had learnt their lesson. Either way it refers to the increase in non-consensual destruction. Something that increases retention as per fanfest 2015. As per surgical strike, trigs on the whole etc etc Forcing destruction = good in some situations. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/36 "2020-06-21T22:19:15Z")
> [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > Given most of their cargo bays can’t accommodate a single laser cycle you **have to** increase the basic cargo. Which is expandable and all that other good stuff. > > So the suggestion, like your comment, is not thought out. You should check your facts, all ships except Orca and Rorq so have enough for a single cycle. But if you insist then we should revert the change that granted those ships mining capabilities and return them to their role as command ships. All of these problems and more disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/37 "2020-06-21T22:19:15Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Could you elaborate? > **[Hulk | Ship](https://zkillboard.com/ship/22544/)** > > Hulk: 16,987 ships destroyed and 141,219 ships lost. > **[CODE. | Alliance](https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99002775/)** > > CODE.: 398,662 ships destroyed and 154,606 ships lost. Low effort troll is low effort. You just want punitive measures against miners for your own easy lols. You’re not adding anything to the game, and you’re not adding “conflict”. ---
**Author:** ![Brun\_Warbear](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brun_warbear/32/380353_2.png) [@Brun\_Warbear](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brun_Warbear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/38 "2020-06-21T22:25:32Z")
> [@Salt\_Foambreaker](#): > > You should check your facts, all ships except Orca and Rorq so have enough for a single cycle. Incorrect. The covetor has 350m3 of cargo hold and at low skills a cycle is 2000m3. You can’t successfully complete a single cycle without the ore hold. And for clarity, emphasis mine: > [@Alterus](#): > > Remove ore bays from everything except haulers. **Barges** and Orcas sitting afk in belts for hours accumulating ore should not be a thing. Ore cans were an interaction and conflict driver. Bring them back. Also the false premise: no barge can sit in a belt for hours without dumping its ore. The Procurer, Covetor, and their T2 counterparts get a couple of cycles. That’s 3 to 5 minutes. Not hours. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/39 "2020-06-21T22:31:22Z")
> [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > You just want punitive measures against miners for your own easy lols. You’re not adding anything to the game, and you’re not adding “conflict”. Have you seen my lossboard? What do you think I spend most of my time doing in this game? ‘conflict drivers’ by definition by ccp, would certainly be increased by the OP’s proposals adjusted according to my first post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111/40 "2020-06-21T22:44:38Z")
> [@Brun\_Warbear](#): > > The covetor This is a a discussion for grown up miners. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/encouraging-highsec-player-conflict-and-interaction/250111.md?page=3)