# Equalization of isk sink and faucets **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [August 23, 2017, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140 "2017-08-23T09:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/41 "2017-08-26T10:28:55Z")
> [@Lena\_Crews](#): > > I think in a shrinking game, assuming players will return to spend their isk is an unrealistic assumption. I think a more interesting a fun gaming experience would increase the player base… but I think you’re probably more likely to get newer (and younger) players than returning 35-40 year olds. Perhaps they won’t, but they can so it must be taken into account irrespective of what one may think. > [@Lena\_Crews](#): > > As far as what you meant… I’m not sure what you’re getting at to be honest. Inflation is a very set term when it comes to economics… it indicates an increase in prices or a decrease in purchasing value of a currency. The statement has been made several times in this thread that an increase in money supply causes inflation. The simple fact is that is not always true. And to be honest it doesn’t seem particularly true in EVE. The only things that seem to be suffering inflation are more due to a static supply than anything. PLEX supply (being based on those willing to spend real money) is fairly static. So the increase in isk in the hands of players does cause an increase in plex prices. CCP reduced the drop rates of pirate ship BPC… and their price went up. This wasn’t due to an increase in isk… but rather a decrease in the ability to produce those ships. But everything else… that can be produced or invented from isk-purchaseable BPC… does not inflate. It doesn’t because there is no constraint on production and as prices rise the increased profit margin causes producers to fill the demand and push prices back to where they started. > > Eve’s production of everything not controlled by purchasing with real money or by CCP’s drop algorithms… is essentially as infinite as the isk supply at the moment. That’s why other things are not inflating in price. Prices… prices… prices… is that all you’ve been thinking? I’m talking purely talking about **monetary** inflation irrespective of prices. I’m not saying that monetary inflation is creating price inflation which is hurting the feel of the game for EVE players. What I am saying is that due to the over-inflation in isk supply(faucets) as compared to isk destruction (sinks) the isk creators (bounty grinding players) are being given a feeling of having less of an impact on the EVE economy than they would be if isk supply/destruction was equalized. What would make you feel more effective, being a drop of water in a large reservoir, or being a drop of water in a small narrow stream? Most would feel more effective in the small narrow stream as they would have a greater effect on the stream than they would in a large reservoir. A large reservoir may have a very small outflow compared to a possibly much greater inflow. The large reservoir gives a feeling of very slowly flowing or perhaps even being stagnant. A small narrow stream can have an equal inflow and outflow. The stream gives a feeling of a relatively fast flow. The drop has a greater impact on a small equalized stream than a large reservoir. Right now EVE feels like the large reservoir when it could just as easily be a small, fast moving, equalized stream. Right now EVE feels slow or stagnant when it could feel fast and alive. (Of course I’m talking of those who create EVE’s isk not pvp players) Did the analogy help? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/42 "2017-08-26T19:55:18Z")
Now i see. What you think is inflation, is not inflation. Or is at least not what people are meaning when they say ‘inflation’. Inflation =/= isk amount growing. Inflation **is** to do with prices of goods or services. Hence, ‘Inflation a general increase in **prices** and fall in the purchasing value of money’ ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/43 "2017-08-27T00:52:13Z")
The OP specifically phrases it as “inflation in the ISK supply”. A “general” increase in prices is relative. What is general to me is not necessarily general to you. A “general” fall in the purchasing [power] of money is dependent on what we tend to buy. It is also informed by WHY we buy it. If you buy bread because you’re hungry but I buy bread because I want to make money, then if the price of bread rises, you eat less but I only make less money, or, I may even make MORE money from higher priced bread. And if that were so, I might want higher prices while you might want lower prices and I might view rising prices as “healthy” and you might view rising prices as “unhealthy”. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/44 "2017-08-27T06:04:49Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > How about the monthly economic report for July 2017 (it’s kind of obvious): [http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Jul\_2017/9aaa\_top.sinks.faucets.over.time.png](http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Jul_2017/9aaa_top.sinks.faucets.over.time.png) First off, simply having a growing money supply does _ **NOT** _ imply that there has to be inflation let alone excessive inflation. If the real economy is growing at say 3% and the money supply growing at 3% then inflation is likely to be zero. If in the real economy grows at say 4% while the money supply grows at 3% there would be modest deflation. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/45 "2017-08-27T06:08:43Z")
Given that the money supply has actually declined for 2 straight months we might actually want to consider increasing the growth rate of ISK. Also, the notion that CCP can manage both sinks and sources of ISK so that the ISK supply growth rate is zero presumes a degree of information and planning that not even CCP has. You’d probably be very well served to read Hayek’s “The Use of Knowledge in Society.” Your grasp of economics is like that of modern economists, that the economy is an engine that can be “fine tuned” like any other machine when in fact it is more like an ecosystem and when you try to control one part, the other parts react in ways that you cannot foresee and they end up causing additional problems and issues. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/46 "2017-08-27T06:12:45Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > Prices… prices… prices… is that all you’ve been thinking? > > I’m talking purely talking about monetary inflation irrespective of prices. Inflation, which is a monetary phenomenon, show up in…wait for it…prices. So yeah, we should be looking at prices. > [@Elzon1](#): > > What I am saying is that due to the over-inflation in isk supply(faucets) as compared to isk destruction (sinks) the isk creators (bounty grinding players) are being given a feeling of having less of an impact on the EVE economy than they would be if isk supply/destruction was equalized. What does this even mean? It sounds like a load of nonsense to me. Nobody sits around worrying about their effect on the economy? When you go to work do you worry about your effect on the economy? What kind of collectivist clap trap is this? > [@Elzon1](#): > > Did the analogy help? No, it is the most irrelevant thing I have read on the forums in a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/47 "2017-08-27T06:18:08Z")
> [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](#): > > A “general” fall in the purchasing [power] of money is dependent on what we tend to buy. It is also informed by WHY we buy it. If you buy bread because you’re hungry but I buy bread because I want to make money, then if the price of bread rises, you eat less but I only make less money, or, I may even make MORE money from higher priced bread. And if that were so, I might want higher prices while you might want lower prices and I might view rising prices as “healthy” and you might view rising prices as “unhealthy”. Who cares. I do not care why you buy something, nor should you care why I buy something. That is why prices are so important in terms of conveying information. When the price of a good goes up that tells you to economize on that good. You do not need to know why, simply that it is, relatively speaking, more scarce and you should economize. Prices allow for people to make decisions throughout the entire economy without having to have detailed information about each good/service they are buying. The entire issue of why I buy X is and should be irrelevant to you. That my purchase of X will have an impact on the price is all you need. People want to look at why people buy, but that kind of information is going to be largely useless. How many transactions do you think take place both in the IRL economy and in game for say a month? I’m going to say a trillion or more for both. How can you even hope to grasp that information and use it in a meaningful way? The effect of those transactions on prices however will tell you all that you need. ---
**Author:** ![Tiddle\_Jr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiddle_jr/32/469145_2.png) [@Tiddle\_Jr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tiddle_Jr)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/48 "2017-08-27T06:43:55Z")
Always thought there is a good thing called Forecast, not knowing what’s coming won’t help you much to split your portfolio to maxed your paybacks. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/49 "2017-08-27T06:55:59Z")
That’s quite different to the entire market though which is what inflation and money supply are about. Forecasts like you are talking about are based more on supply & demand predictions. ---
**Author:** ![Tiddle\_Jr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tiddle_jr/32/469145_2.png) [@Tiddle\_Jr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tiddle_Jr)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 7:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/50 "2017-08-27T07:48:15Z")
it’s not оnly prediciton there are some known factors (internal & external) ones. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/51 "2017-08-27T10:04:55Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Inflation, which is a monetary phenomenon, show up in…wait for it…prices. So yeah, we should be looking at prices. Inflation (short hand for “price inflation”) is an economic phenomenon first and foremost. Monetary inflation can occur irrespective of price inflation. Even though it’s general consensus that monetary inflation has a causal link to price inflation the means to measuring that link are still debated in modern economic theory. It’s not a direct link. You can still have inflation of the money supply without seeing any inflation of prices. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > What does this even mean? It sounds like a load of nonsense to me. Nobody sits around worrying about their effect on the economy? When you go to work do you worry about your effect on the economy? What kind of collectivist clap trap is this? I’ll try translating it a different way. Due to the excessive increase in the isk supply over the destruction of the isk supply, isk creators (bounty grinding players) are seeing less value for the isk they produce as compared to what could be with isk supply/destruction equalized. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 10:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/52 "2017-08-27T10:59:06Z")
What are you meaning by ‘less value for the isk they produce’? Because if you mean purchasing power then you’re wrong. Prices are the same, purchasing power is the same. The value of the isk produced is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/53 "2017-08-27T11:10:41Z")
You say it’s not about prices and then waffle on about prices… Like teckos explains, why people buy things is irrelevant. How much people buy is also irrelevant as long as there are still some left. All that matters is the price of goods/services. That is the only measure if your purchasing power. The only measure of the value of your isk. That’s why the cpi is a thing. Focusing on one commodity is a useless measure of isk value because the vast majority of us, if not all of us, trade in more than one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/54 "2017-08-27T13:41:20Z")
No one buys everything in the economy. Different classes of player buy different baskets of goods. For instance, miners buy mining laser crystals, but not tritanium. Manufacturers buy tritanium but not mining laser crystals. If the overall inflation indicator stayed the same but the price of tritanium spiked while the price of mining laser crystals plummeted, miners might see the value of their ISK increase while manufacturers might see the value of their ISK decrease. ---
**Author:** ![Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mayhaw_morgan/32/412682_2.png) [@Mayhaw\_Morgan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mayhaw_Morgan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/55 "2017-08-27T14:13:14Z")
Why people buy things is highly relevant, both in the micro and macro economic realm. Manufacturers cannot build (most) things without tritanium, but miners can actually mine with very high efficiency without mining laser crystals. This makes the demand for tritanium inelastic whereas the demand for mining laser crystals is elastic. If the price of tritanium goes up, there must be a sharp reaction from the economy, but not necessarily a sharp reaction in price. It could be that manufacturers just stop producing or produce more efficiently or direct more production capacity or market resources to procuring tritanium. (Think: searching more market regions. Placing more orders. Recruiting more miners. Training reprocessing skills. Deploying an engineering complex, etc.) Now, I don’t know if ISK faucets and sinks are or should be “equalized”, but I know it is not simply about one number. And even that number looks different depending on where you’re standing. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/56 "2017-08-27T23:44:30Z")
If one commodity price changes but others dont, it’s not the purchase power of isk that is changing (i.e. it’s not inflation), its the commodity that is changing. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/57 "2017-08-28T03:11:45Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > Inflation (short hand for “price inflation”) is an economic phenomenon first and foremost. Monetary inflation can occur irrespective of price inflation. Even though it’s general consensus that monetary inflation has a causal link to price inflation the means to measuring that link are still debated in modern economic theory. It’s not a direct link. You can still have inflation of the money supply without seeing any inflation of prices. Don’t make Milton Friedman’s ghost cry. You are confusing changes in the price level with inflation. A price can change if the underlying supply or demand changes. This is not inflation. Inflation is due to a increase in the money supply and leads to an increase in the general price level. > [@Elzon1](#): > > I’ll try translating it a different way. Due to the excessive increase in the isk supply over the destruction of the isk supply, isk creators (bounty grinding players) are seeing less value for the isk they produce as compared to what could be with isk supply/destruction equalized. Yeah, and this is called price inflation which we are, in general, not really seeing. See, if I go out and make 1 billion ISK next month chances are I am not going to spend the entire 1 billion. As such most of it sits in my wallet. Unlike a modern economy that ISK is not going to go into circulation. With that ISK not in circulation it cannot have much if any effect on prices. As for things like PvP having a bigger wallet than a smaller wallet translates into a more PvP than less. The relative impact of a loss is smaller with more ISK in my wallet than with less. So more ISK creation means a larger propensity for PvP. Really not sure where you studied economics or if you did at all, but you’d be better served reading Hayek and Bastiat, and fortunately Bastiat’s stuff is free and the Library of Liberty and FEE you can a number of Hayek’s writings for “free”. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/58 "2017-08-28T10:12:08Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Don’t make Milton Friedman’s ghost cry. You are confusing changes in the price level with inflation. A price can change if the underlying supply or demand changes. This is not inflation. Inflation is due to a increase in the money supply and leads to an increase in the general price level. Milton is awesome, but ghosts aren’t real. Inflation is a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money so I’m not confused about it’s definition nor how to use it. I’m just saying that increases in the general price level of an entire economy can be attributed to monetary inflation, however that can be hard to detect and the link may not be very direct. If we’re talking about PLEX though it’s an obvious indicator of the inflation of the isk supply as it, mostly, has a single purpose of supplying subscription time for players. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/d/0/d056a8ba98ce7c0877adfa25baffbc38b4a8aed5.png) > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Really not sure where you studied economics or if you did at all, but you’d be better served reading Hayek and Bastiat, and fortunately Bastiat’s stuff is free and the Library of Liberty and FEE you can a number of Hayek’s writings for “free”. I’m familiar with Hayek although I’m not so familiar with Bastiat. At some point I will do some reading on Hayek and Bastiat as time permits. Milton Friedman has been a big influence on me though 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/59 "2017-08-28T10:19:03Z")
So this was about plex after all. ---
**Author:** ![Elzon1](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elzon1/32/255919_2.png) [@Elzon1](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elzon1)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140/60 "2017-08-28T10:20:46Z")
> [@Elzon1](#): > > less value for the isk they produce as compared to what could be with isk supply/destruction equalized. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > What are you meaning by ‘less value for the isk they produce’? Because if you mean purchasing power then you’re wrong. Prices are the same, purchasing power is the same. “less value for the isk they produce as compared to what could be with isk supply/destruction equalized.” By that I mean if the isk creation/destruction was equalized there would be less active isk available in the economy and thus an increase in the value of the isk supplied by the isk creators. This would necessitate a decrease in general prices which we would in fact see (more obvious with PLEX). [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/equalization-of-isk-sink-and-faucets/19140.md?page=4)