# ESI Scopes that let others read your entire mail box **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2023, 10:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908 "2023-09-17T22:23:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/21 "2023-09-18T21:59:13Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > > [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > > > You’re not giving out your data to a trusted police officer. You’re giving it to a deranged sociopath who will immediately leverage the information gained against you to maximum effect. These two are not compareable. > > And you don’t _have_ to give them that data in the first place, just don’t agree to the scopes requested, there is no problem While I appreciate the suggestion to simply not agree to the scopes requested, this isn’t a practical solution for everyone. If a majority of powerful corporations in the game employ this feature, opting out could mean isolating oneself from a significant portion of Eve’s social and competitive environments. It’s akin to telling someone to just not use the internet if they’re concerned about privacy. Yes, that’s technically a solution, but it’s not a realistic or satisfying one given the digital age we live in. Similarly, telling players to just avoid certain corporations or not play certain parts of the game is a way of sidestepping the root issue. The real question is, why should players have to make that choice in the first place? A game’s design should prioritize user privacy and trust, not force players into compromising situations where they have to choose between privacy and participation. With accessible regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/22 "2023-09-18T22:15:37Z")
There are plenty of corps that do not require the scopes you are concerned about though. You’re argument is not a valid one. Don’t just settle for the first ten paranoid corp you see. Find a group that matches your mind set. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/23 "2023-09-18T22:33:56Z")
> [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > While I appreciate the suggestion to simply not agree to the scopes requested, this isn’t a practical solution for everyone. Oh its 100% a practical option for everyone, the issue is some people don’t want to make that choice, there is nothing wrong with the scope, the same as the ability to set autopilot destinations or view your wallet transactions, if you don’t want an entity to have that information you don’t grant it, end of Its a transactional system, if you want to join x corp you agree to their recruitment requirements, if you’re not happy paying that price then you simply don’t join, like i said its 100% within the players choice ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 12:13am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/24 "2023-09-19T00:13:17Z")
> [@Aiko\_Danuja](#): > > You are assuming there is some competitive edge to ESI access. However, there is not. This is something carebear corporations do, because they are carebears. PvP players just refuse, and join corporations which don’t have silly policies. It’s not quite as simple as that. I’ve had to do the ESI stuff when genuinely spying on a corp. So one can’t always avoid it. Fortunately they were convinced when I joined a fleet and helped defend them against Blackflag. I left the corp without them ever realising they had a spy in their midst. ESI can’t tell them what isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iceacid_frostpacker/32/505689_2.png) [@Iceacid\_Frostpacker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iceacid_Frostpacker)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/25 "2023-09-19T01:23:50Z")
Couldn’t imagine ever doing anything sneaky in New Eden ever! Just hope nobody reads the recommendations that Aiko had written as no ESI access would ever explain such about this pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Sienna\_Massilia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sienna_massilia/32/390388_2.png) [@Sienna\_Massilia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sienna_Massilia)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/26 "2023-09-19T02:28:13Z")
> [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > That being said, there’s also an implicit trust that these entities will handle our data responsibly and not misuse it. And with every case when that doesn’t happen that trust gets eroded among the general population. Not counting the hundreds of times when the data of millions was stolen in hacks. > [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > How does an in-game guild or corporation shape up to that level of trust or accountability? It doesn’t Trust is a big word and it goes both ways. EVE is a social game but also perpetual war by its very PvP nature. I know I wouldn’t want just any Alt joining my corporation without proper vetting. The possibilities that > [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > deranged sociopath who will immediately leverage the information gained against you exist is true in every game, anywhere online and irl too yet there are a few ways to avoid it. Remember that corporation members are co-players and definitely not anything but that unless met irl. The chat doesn’t have to stray into private stuff. There’s plenty to chat about EVE… > [@James\_Fuchs](#): > > One of the primary tasks of a developer, apart from enhancing gameplay, should be to safeguard user privacy and ensure a trusted environment Your privacy is up to you. It’s up to how you use the game and the internet and what you share and do with the players that you meet in game. ---
**Author:** ![Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mindahouf_davaham/32/379996_2.png) [@Mindahouf\_Davaham](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mindahouf_Davaham)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 12:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/27 "2023-09-19T12:05:30Z")
what stuff did you do to the corp? ---
**Author:** ![Altara\_Zemara](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/altara_zemara/32/390110_2.png) [@Altara\_Zemara](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Altara_Zemara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 12:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/28 "2023-09-19T12:18:54Z")
I just spied on their activities, chat, ship fittings, mining operations…all stuff that could easily be done without ESI especially given the propensity of people for blurting out confidential stuff in group chat or on Discord. They wanted ESI from my alt…but as the alt had no prior corp, no emails, etc, there was little they would have seen. I even made sure that any funds went via several noob alts so they could not be traced to me. And…not even the corp I was spying _for_ knew who my spy was. That’s how to do it properly. ---
**Author:** ![Arya\_Yeshe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arya_yeshe/32/397211_2.png) [@Arya\_Yeshe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arya_Yeshe)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/29 "2023-09-19T13:15:20Z")
Riff-raff alliances are asking all the access these days, such is their entitlement One of such alliances “explained” me that they have to do this because the alliance has “trilionaires”! Hello? They are the spies, they are the ones spying on everybody and hoarding this, who knows what they will do in the future with everything… while being the spies themselves they preemptively accuse others of being spies ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/30 "2023-09-19T13:28:16Z")
I was the loudest voice when WTM started checking your skills on their waitlist. (Incursions) Darn government getting bigger and bigger everyday! ---
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/31 "2023-09-19T16:28:54Z")
> [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > And with every case when that doesn’t happen that trust gets eroded among the general population. Not counting the hundreds of times when the data of millions was stolen in hacks. You’re right, trust gets eroded with every mishandling of data, and this is particularly concerning when we talk about data breaches caused by external hackers. However, what I’m discussing here is not an unexpected external breach, but a deliberate, internal feature allowing for vast data access. It’s crucial to understand the disparity between a regulated entity like an ISP or a governmental agency and an in-game corporation managed by regular players. The former has strict legal guidelines, trained professionals, and usually an established reputation to maintain. They have protocols, and while certainly not infallible, they have a structure designed to handle data with a certain degree of responsibility. On the other hand, giving similar data access to in-game corporations puts significant power into the hands of individuals who _certainly_ do not have the training, and _ **CERTAINLY** _ not the ethical guidelines or the accountability that professional entities have. It’s the difference between trusting a professional security firm with the keys to your house versus handing them to a stranger on the street. While both scenarios carry risks, the nature, scale, and potential consequences of these risks can be drastically different. Hence, we shouldn’t just conflate trust and accountability between random strangers and trusted agencies, but instead realize the inherent risks of built-in access given to individuals without the proper frameworks of responsibility. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Trust is a big word and it goes both ways. EVE is a social game but also perpetual war by its very PvP nature. I know I wouldn’t want just any Alt joining my corporation without proper vetting. I get the need for vetting in a competitive PvP environment. But should the vetting process really include a player’s private mailbox? We can achieve trust and security without crossing certain boundaries. Instead of siphoning all their privately intended conversations and make notes on every little thing they wrote and said, why not instead talk to them and get to know them? Would that make things more difficult and thus undesireable? > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > The possibilities that exist is true in every game, anywhere online and irl too yet there are a few ways to avoid it. Remember that corporation members are co-players and definitely not anything but that unless met irl. The chat doesn’t have to stray into private stuff. There’s plenty to chat about EVE… While there’s truth in maintaining in-game conversations strictly about the game, it’s unrealistic to think players won’t occasionally touch upon personal subjects, even inadvertently. A game should not impose on its users the constant stress of self-censorship, or build in landmines that unaware users walk into and make them suddenly give up every single bit of private communication they ever had. > [@Sienna\_Massilia](#): > > Your privacy is up to you. It’s up to how you use the game and the internet and what you share and do with the players that you meet in game. While I also believe in personal responsibility, it shouldn’t absolve developers from designing systems that respect and protect user privacy. It’s a joint responsibility. Players should be cautious, of course, but game developers should also create environments where players don’t feel their privacy is perpetually at risk. In the end, Sienna, my aim is to highlight an issue that affects the player base and to have an open dialogue about it. I appreciate your perspective, and I hope to find common ground in this discussion. With secure regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/32 "2023-09-19T16:46:42Z")
I used to use EVEHQ to read the evemails on several accounts, to see if there was something that I had to log in a specific character to deal with or not. EVEHQ used the old API. Then CCP changed it and it no longer worked. Are you saying that it’s possible for a new EVEHQ to be made, where I could read the evemails on my accounts using a desktop program, rather than having to log in to each account ? Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/33 "2023-09-19T16:54:12Z")
Dude if you are that concerned take the communications outside. Ccp allows that access and considering everything belongs to ccp anyway, why get all upset over it ---
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/34 "2023-09-19T17:01:40Z")
> [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](#): > > Dude if you are that concerned take the communications outside. Ccp allows that access and considering everything belongs to ccp anyway, why get all upset over it Allow me to ask this: Do you _want_ your mail communications to be publicly accessible to everyone? With open regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/geo_eclipse_oksaras/32/500781_2.png) [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Geo_Eclipse_Oksaras)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/35 "2023-09-19T17:19:23Z")
Considering i dont post anything private in my evemails and use them for in game use only. And i dont join corps who require that scope. Then its a non issue ---
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/36 "2023-09-19T17:26:16Z")
> [@Geo\_Eclipse\_Oksaras](#): > > Considering i dont post anything private in my evemails and use them for in game use only. And i dont join corps who require that scope. Then its a non issue So, if it isn’t a problem for you, you’re fine with it being a problem for everyone else and oppose any discussion about addressing it? With nice regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/37 "2023-09-19T17:40:11Z")
I think a better question is “Why can’t people be responsible about to whom they give access to their Evemail, and why should I be penalized for that.” ---
**Author:** ![Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anthony_fattony_amico/32/391106_2.png) [@Anthony\_FatTony\_Amico](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anthony_FatTony_Amico)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/38 "2023-09-19T17:46:50Z")
External chat boxes are always an option people! ---
**Author:** ![James\_Fuchs](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/james_fuchs/32/504955_2.png) [@James\_Fuchs](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/James_Fuchs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/39 "2023-09-19T17:55:40Z")
> [@Qia\_Kare](#): > > I think a better question is “Why can’t people be responsible about to whom they give access to their Evemail, and why should I be penalized for that.” Can you please explain to me, how corporations not having access to user mailboxes is penalizing _you_? With curious regards -James Fuchs ---
**Author:** ![Qia\_Kare](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/qia_kare/32/279281_2.png) [@Qia\_Kare](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Qia_Kare)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908/40 "2023-09-19T18:23:57Z")
I used ESI applications to read my mail. Remove the scope, and ESI is less useful to me. ESI is just a developer tool to develop whatever you want. You can create things for personal use and just grant access to your own applications, and mail is a useful scope in my case. If one’s permission was not required to grant access to the messages, that would be a problem, but that permission /is/ required. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/esi-scopes-that-let-others-read-your-entire-mail-box/420908.md?page=3)