# Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538 "2017-10-27T10:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/531 "2018-01-18T16:14:45Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Nobody claimed you would enter the captcha only at login. > > That makes no goddam sense, since you just obviously, manually, entered the game seconds before. > > You have completely missed the entire point. > [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > It also needs to be something frequent enough that nobody will WANT to do it that many times. Sadly, that is diametrically opposed to any acceptable customer experience (oh, you want to warp? fill out this captcha!) Not empty quoting ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/532 "2018-01-18T16:15:53Z")
You need to read the thread, bro. Its not about how many times bots WANT to pass the captcha. Its about how many times they will HAVE to pass the captcha to keep their botting running whilst afk. Nobody is suggesting everyone should fill a captcha before warping. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/533 "2018-01-18T16:20:06Z")
A captcha catching a bot (assuming the bot doesn’t defeat the captcha) would have to be frequent enough that it can stop a bot. Reaching that frequency would dramatically inconvenience all real players, which is exactly what you want your customers to not experience. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Its about how many times they will HAVE to pass the captcha to keep their botting running whilst afk. And what decides when they’re afk? As far as the server is concerned, it’s getting input. It’s even getting it from the client, because as far as the client is concerned it’s getting it from the mouse and keyboard. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Nobody is suggesting everyone should fill a captcha before warping. That was facetious. Any captcha popping up while the pilot is in space will inadvertently disrupt a real player at a very inopportune time, such as when they’re trying to crash a camped gate. ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/534 "2018-01-18T16:22:39Z")
I would think a color matching captcha would be super easy for a machine to solve. Even the most basic art apps have a color dropper. Really though, all this theorizing about how to beat the bots is stupid. CCP’s not going to do it or even think that hard about it, because they just don’t give a ■■■■. Seriously, what in the 15 years of EVE’s existence would lead anyone to believe that the anti-bot effort is anything more than a cheap PR? ---
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/535 "2018-01-18T16:24:02Z")
I remember it too. They were talking about learning how people use UI. Looking back it’s funny correlating UI changes with this study. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/536 "2018-01-18T16:24:23Z")
Before you open your mouth, read back at least 20 posts. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This captcha system will work against the huge majority of EVE bots, especially against prolonged afk botting. > > There may still be exceptions, but A) CCP will have more time/resources to delve through data to find the remainder B) Those cutting edge botters will not share their tech/setup with anyone. > > What remains to be discussed, is when/why this captcha pop-up should occur, so as to impair non-botters as little as possible, and botters as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/537 "2018-01-18T16:24:24Z")
> [@mkint](#): > > Really though, all this theorizing about how to beat the bots is stupid. CCP’s not going to do it or even think that hard about it, because they just don’t give a ■■■■. Seriously, what in the 15 years of EVE’s existence would lead anyone to believe that the anti-bot effort is anything more than a cheap PR? Or they’ve realized that it could be the final nail in the coffin if they don’t finally deal with it, and they’re not ready to stop losing money? ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/538 "2018-01-18T16:24:55Z")
> [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > And what decides when they’re afk? An always-on webcam? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/539 "2018-01-18T16:29:27Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This captcha system will work against the huge majority of EVE bots, especially against prolonged afk botting. Why, praytell, would they care about an AFK bot? What’s it going to do, AFK too much? > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > There may still be exceptions, but A) CCP will have more time/resources to delve through data to find the remainder B) Those cutting edge botters will not share their tech/setup with anyone. I could compile a very rudimentary bot in about 5 minutes that would defeat AFK detection. CCP does not utilize guardian software of any nature, which means that I could even just use AutoHotKey to defeat AFK detection. A violation of the EULA for sure, but so is botting… soo… > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > What remains to be discussed, is when/why this captcha pop-up should occur, so as to impair non-botters as little as possible, and botters as much as possible. Ask yourself WHAT behaviour a bot is doing that you want it to stop. Such as ratting. Then ask yourself if a player would legitimately do that activity in the same way. You’ll find that a bot and a player do the exact same activities, in the same way. A bot just does them for a LOT longer, without being at the keyboard. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Before you open your mouth, read back at least 20 posts. As I said, I did. You make a number of asinine assumptions that I’m trying to say are asinine. It’s not that I didn’t read it, it’s that you’re _wrong_. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/540 "2018-01-18T16:30:04Z")
> [@mkint](#): > > I would think a color matching captcha would be super easy for a machine to solve. Even the most basic art apps have a color dropper. You are conflating basic art apps having a color dropper, with programming a bot to know wtf to do with it. The art app is basic. Programming a bot to make any use of that, or recognize colors in a grid, is master degree + years of experience in the field. Most bots in EVE are simple scripts. The kind of capacity you are talking about is reserved for the bot “elite” that we will never be rid off. Fortunately, they almost never share their software/know-how, out of self-interest. This is about wiping out the lazy idiot botters, whom comprise the greatest part of the volume, if not the value. ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/541 "2018-01-18T16:36:07Z")
I have a hard time believing that. It may be true for a bot that has never seen it before, but if it’s the same shape grid, and each dot is in the same place, it would just need to query the hex code for the color at the relevant locations. A bot can already identify blue vs red and dock up, it’s not a huge leap to the next step. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/542 "2018-01-18T16:37:31Z")
I think lately they internally abandoned the research and just do what they can with limited resources UI and economy side. I dont remember seeing any CCP research with convincing graphs last fanfest for those. ---
**Author:** ![Andrew\_Gernander](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andrew_gernander/32/14207_2.png) [@Andrew\_Gernander](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andrew_Gernander)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/543 "2018-01-18T16:49:10Z")
This is probably going to sound exceptionally stupid and please note the sarcasm dripping off of it in full force, but here goes: CCP has opted to start down the path of attracting casuals and those that need their ego stroked by the computer telling them what such a good job of internet spaceships they’re doing with the interactive NPE and the nice people talking to you as you try to go to one of the new mining sites. Why not, and I think this was a thing way back in the Wing Commander games, have one of the dirty rat NPC’s chime in and give you a good taunting as you’re approaching their turf in an anomaly/site/mission or as they’re moving in to your belt and your mining lasers are on. Have three to six responses ready on the dialog pop-up. One to two are appropriate human responses to the taunt and the rest are there to catch a bot. Add to the pool of taunt/response combinations every mini release or even every week’s patch. Needs to be regionalized, obviously. CCP can hold a contest for submitting these taunts/responses once in a while. Peeps get a chance to be immortalized in taunts. If the “human” picks a bot response, the site spawns something undesirable or does not spawn a faction rat or something of a similar nature, nothing has loot, etc. Human responses give a cool-down period, though an option to include them at every site for flavor in the settings might be nice. Add some taunting bots at gates (weak, or an extension of the roaming diamond npc’s) to catch the hauler bots. Enough failures and picking of stupid responses the character gets flagged for bot review and they pop more frequently. It won’t do anything about market bots (unless you want to have a taunt pop-up for people who price respond like a bot) but it would give a way to flag/hinder bots in space and add something in for plot purposes/stroking egos of those doomed to shoot NPC’s for the rest of their days. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/544 "2018-01-18T16:49:53Z")
> [@mkint](#): > > I have a hard time believing that. It may be true for a bot that has never seen it before, but if it’s the same shape grid, and each dot is in the same place, it would just need to query the hex code for the color at the relevant locations. A bot can already identify blue vs red and dock up, it’s not a huge leap to the next step. Im not going to ask about the specifics of how you claim bots can already identify blue vs red (and dock up, whatever that means). As to the issue you raise of the dots appearing in the same place, I can adjust my suggestion for the captcha as a 3x3 field, to instead involve connecting two same color dots placed randomly in a space field, similar to how a constellation looks on the ingame map, IE: To connect two similarly colored coordinate point dots placed randomly on a x/y axis, among differently colored dots, by clicking each, once. ---
**Author:** ![Baba\_Ji](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baba_ji/32/36487_2.png) [@Baba\_Ji](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baba_Ji)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/545 "2018-01-18T16:58:39Z")
Debating about what new layer of complexity to add? Really? Have I missed something about why it is ok to afk? ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/546 "2018-01-18T17:01:02Z")
> [@mkint](#): > > I have a hard time believing that. It may be true for a bot that has never seen it before, but if it’s the same shape grid, and each dot is in the same place, it would just need to query the hex code for the color at the relevant locations. A bot can already identify blue vs red and dock up, it’s not a huge leap to the next step. You are correct. A bot detecting a blue or red entering system would require grabbing the window contents and programmatically parsing/handling it. A script is unable to do this. A basic script that doesn’t care about the screen contents and just clicks blindly will be defeated by a catcha. But anything that can detect the content of the screen is not a script. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > As to the issue you raise of the dots appearing in the same place, I can adjust my suggestion for the captcha as a 3x3 field, to instead involve connecting two same color dots placed randomly in a space field, similar to how a constellation looks on the ingame map, What you aren’t understanding here is that if a player can figure it out, so too can a bot. Unless it requires some kind of real-world common sense knowledge on routinely new topics. For example, “pick all the squares in this picture that have a street sign in them”. The next day it’s the same picture but the question is “pick all the squares in this picture that have a car in them”. People can do that, bots can’t. They don’t know what a street sign or a car is unless you program the image recognition to recognize them. If you CAN program a bot for that, the Turing test would like a word with you. > [@Baba\_Ji](#): > > Have I missed something about why it is ok to afk? I AFK all the time. In a station. But even if I did AFK out in space, with a VNI, running a site, is that bad? No. It’s not even against the TOS. Yes it’s incredibly stupid and I’m likely to lose my drones or my ship, but I totally can do it without any compunctions. **BOTTING IS NOT AFK.** ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/547 "2018-01-18T17:02:14Z")
Something like this: ![AntibotField](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41304413d7e77ee1528d5b3f5c508cb1e03a4860.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Pervert](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/old_pervert/32/149708_2.png) [@Old\_Pervert](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Old_Pervert)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/548 "2018-01-18T17:03:00Z")
A botting program would be able to answer that faster than a person would. ---
**Author:** ![Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gadget_helmsdottir/32/374037_2.png) [@Gadget\_Helmsdottir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gadget_Helmsdottir)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/549 "2018-01-18T17:03:33Z")
Is that the new map?? 😜 –Gadget picks the blue one ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/550 "2018-01-18T17:04:04Z")
> [@Old\_Pervert](#): > > A botting program On a scale of 1-10, how much do you know about “botting programs”? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=26) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=28)