# Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538 "2017-10-27T10:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 7:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/592 "2018-01-20T07:30:42Z")
> [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > Bot can’t evolve, they don’t have random mutations that then get naturally selected. They are in-fact designed by an intelligence, for a specific purpose. Then they are redesigned to fit their changing environment. Bots are basically a result of players. They are a type of strategy that players utilize. A bad strategy for the overall health of the game, but a strategy none-the-less. Player behavior _can_ and _does_ evolve. Basically, the player or people programming the bots will program better bots. We see this all the time. And while I often enjoy Gadget’s posts Gadget should take a look at how complex adaptive systems work, the notion of coevolution is used extensively and yes with social systems as well as biological systems. The entire notion of evolutionary game theory can be applied not just to biological systems but to social systems. There is a growing literature on this. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/593 "2018-01-20T10:46:58Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Bots are basically a result of players Great, so you agree “bots can’t evolve” I don’t know why you felt you needed all those extra words to agree on such a simple point. I have some botting software, and I’ve been watching it, it hasn’t changed on it’s own at all. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Basically, the player or people programming the bots will program better bots. We see this all the time. Yes, and that’s more like “intelligent design,” there is an intelligent, external cause (the programmer) for every change in the bots or in the game. All changes to bots, bot behaviour, and the game of EvE only come by debilitate choices made by developers. EvE is not a natural system, it is a designed system. Designed systems don’t evolve. I do however understand your confusion, because it isn’t just your confusion, but it was first Dawkin’s confusion. When he tried to establish that internet memes “evolve” and change on their own, but they are also designed things that cannot change on their own. (This is why scientists should do science and philosophers should do philosophy, because they aren’t good at doing the other’s job.) ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/594 "2018-01-20T10:54:56Z")
Not really wanting to put my hand in this blender but isnt evolution and adaptation always the result of external forces being applied to the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/595 "2018-01-20T11:08:22Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > isnt evolution and adaptation always the result of external forces being applied to the subject? Yes, but the question is about those external forces making choices or not. In the case of Darwin’s finches, the wet or dry weather didn’t choose that it liked finches with pointy or rounded beaks. It effected, but it did not choose. On the other hand, almost every bread of dog we have in the world is not a product of evolution, but comes from directed choices made by man (an external force) to effect a desired change. > [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > Not really wanting to put my hand in this blender LOL Luv ya girl. I hope your hand’s okay. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/596 "2018-01-20T11:27:35Z")
Ok. I have more things that Id say on this subject, but I think it best just to leave it. _recloaks_ ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/597 "2018-01-20T15:05:02Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Bots are basically a result of players. They are a type of strategy that players utilize. Bots are not a matter of evolution, in the game perspective, per se. Bots are a matter of parasitism and harmful effect on the host (ie: the game) EVE is not evolving, when it is beset by parasites. It is, infact, dying faster. EVE evolves only when it adapts/changes to a result of negating/removing the effects of those parasites. TLDR: Bots harm/kill EVE. EVE must adapt/change to get rid of bots, to thrive/survive. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/598 "2018-01-20T15:54:04Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Bots are not a matter of evolution Can I change my position if Salvos is agreeing with me? 🙂 > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > EVE is not evolving, when it is beset by parasites. > > It is, infact, dying faster. > > EVE evolves only when it adapts/changes to a result of negating/removing the effects of those parasites. Nevermind… ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/599 "2018-01-20T16:28:33Z")
> [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > Nevermind… Organic systems have been fighting parasite/bacteria/virus invasions for hundreds of millions of years, at the attrition of countless billions of host organisms, via natural selection. EVE, if left to its own devices without CCP intervention, does not have the means to counter bot proliferation. We as players, can’t ban other players. Every bot you might kill, is replaced by another and/or moves somewhere else. We can’t stop this plague as players. We dont have the means, except to annoy botters mildly. Only CCP can make the changes to evolve this game, as our host, to increase its defenses against the harmful effects of bots. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/600 "2018-01-20T16:33:40Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > EVE, if left to its own devices Does nothing. It is not an organic system. You can’t exclude the devs and include the players, they are both external to the code that makes EvE. Everything that happens in EvE or to EvE happens by a conscious choice, or by design, of an intelligence\* external to it. \*I use this word loosely having conversed with some of the players. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/601 "2018-01-20T16:40:11Z")
As I said. EVE itself, organically, cannot fight bots to any substantial degree. We as players, lack the means. Only CCP can do it by reaching into our aquarium and removing/preventing them. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/602 "2018-01-20T16:43:52Z")
Yes, I know what you said, and that’s why you aren’t agreeing with me as I first thought. You can’t agree with something you don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/603 "2018-01-20T16:51:03Z")
> [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > You can’t agree with something you don’t understand. What do you claim I do not understand? ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/604 "2018-01-20T16:53:52Z")
This thread just keeps cycling through different kinds of dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/605 "2018-01-20T16:59:50Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > What do you claim I do not understand? > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > EVE itself, organically You don’t understand the word “organic” if you think it can be used to talk about a collection of ones and zeros existing on a server somewhere. I said EvE doesn’t “evolve” because it is constructed and cannot evolve. You said that it isn’t evolving because bots are hurting it. Clearly we have different positions, we are not in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/606 "2018-01-20T17:19:43Z")
> [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > Great, so you agree “bots can’t evolve” I don’t know why you felt you needed all those extra words to agree on such a simple point. I have some botting software, and I’ve been watching it, it hasn’t changed on it’s own at all. There you go being a dumb smart person again. People can evolve in terms of their behavior though. The whole idea of complex adaptive systems is built on the notion of people doing something very much like we see in biological systems. Highly simplified version: Look for a strategy, evaluate it’s efficacy, junk it if it isn’t working, try a new one. As such, no the bots are not going to evolve just on their own. But the people creating them can and do change in response to changes in their environment. > [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > Yes, and that’s more like “intelligent design,” there is an intelligent, external cause (the programmer) for every change in the bots or in the game. All changes to bots, bot behaviour, and the game of EvE only come by debilitate choices made by developers. I think you meant deliberate, but sure. However, this is still a process of “trial-and-error” and competition. > [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > EvE is not a natural system, it is a designed system. Designed systems don’t evolve. Actually EVE has evolved…because of changes the Devs have made, often in response to how the players behave. That is very much like coevolution. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Bots are not a matter of evolution, in the game perspective, per se. Actually, they are. Strategies can and do evolve, and if you look at botting as a type of strategy then yeah, the concepts of evolution can be applied. Not in the exact same literal sense as in a biological system true, but still the bots can change over time as a result of how the game changes because of the people behind both the game and the bots. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Bots harm/kill EVE. > > EVE must adapt/change to get rid of bots, to thrive/survive. I don’t think anyone has said that bots are good, so okay on the first one. As for you second point…dude…adaptation is a part of evolutionary processes. You are kinda contradicting yourself here. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/607 "2018-01-20T17:32:43Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > But the people creating them can and do change in response to changes in their environment. Of course they do, but that’s the point evolution [by natural selection] means that it is **not** selected by an **external choice** , but it is selected **naturally** as a response to an **external force**. The whole point of Darwin’s theory of evolution is that there is **not** something outside the “thing” making changes trying to make a winner. What is happening with EvE / with bots is the exact opposite of this: there are things (dev and bot devs) outside of the “things” (the game and bots) that are trying to make a winner. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > I think you meant deliberate Yep, even dumb smart people sometimes click to wrong word in the spellcheck. 🙂 Your other points were addressed above. ---
**Author:** ![Baba\_Ji](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/baba_ji/32/36487_2.png) [@Baba\_Ji](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Baba_Ji)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/608 "2018-01-20T17:56:19Z")
Ladies and Gentlemen ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/f/3f7f03f5691841666da529c2e499e21648abf5c5.jpg) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/9/c95784bd56a6475098d78751ffdf0e152ce5be8a.jpg) 300 plus post out of 600. Ahem… 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/609 "2018-01-20T18:00:04Z")
> [@Anjyl\_Took](#): > > I said EvE doesn’t “evolve” because it is constructed and cannot evolve. You said that it isn’t evolving because bots are hurting it. Clearly we have different positions, we are not in agreement. With organic, I meant the player community trying to fight off bots. I didnt mean to mean EVE isnt evolving due to bots hurting it. EVE is evolving as a system, but as one increasingly laden by parasites. Similar to a mammal laden with intestinal parasites trying to overcome their deliterious effect, by changing its behavior, If that was your point, then touche. My point was EVE itself cannot evolve to defeat bots, organically. It needs CCP intervention to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Anjyl\_Took](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anjyl_took/32/31967_2.png) [@Anjyl\_Took](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anjyl_Took)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/610 "2018-01-20T18:07:09Z")
I once had a pig, I tried to teach it to sing, it turned out to be a waste of my time, it annoyed the pig, and looked silly to anyone watching. I don’t think there is anything more I can say on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/611 "2018-01-20T18:08:25Z")
I dont understand the analogy, or its relevance. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=29) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=31)