# Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538 "2017-10-27T10:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/632 "2018-01-21T10:33:51Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You seem to have this bizarre idea that every player who uses a bot writes their own bots. Not a bunch of players using a bot that someone else wrote, who may not even actually use their own code to avoid being banned other than through a firewalled proxy for testing, but just profits from selling it to other people. You have completely misread me. I have said the exact opposite. Most botters are idiots with only rudimentary understanding of the tools they are using They copy/paste them pretty much from obscure sources. My point exactly, snd which I cannot see how you did not comprehend, as Ive stated it over and over, is that wiping out the idiot botters comprises the majority of botters, and leaves CCP with resources to deal with the remainder that actually know what they are doing. Furthermore, those advanced botters, do not like to share their setups. They dont want more botters in the game competing with them, they dont want CCP clued in on their methods, and they dont like “idiots” making profit off their work. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/633 "2018-01-21T10:34:05Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Its not rational to argue “hey, we better leave botters alone, cos if we fk them up now, they will come back with better bots” > > Completely defeats the purpose. I am not saying this. I am just saying that there is no magic bullet here. People always think this, then everything goes to ■■■■. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/634 "2018-01-21T10:36:24Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Furthermore, those advanced botters, do not like to share their setups. How can they stop it? It isn’t like somebody is going to be copyrighting this stuff and then enforce it in a court of law. “Hi your honor, I wrote this program to cheat at a video game and that guy stole my cheat codes!” > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > They dont want more botters in the game competing with them, they dont want CCP clued in on their methods, and they dont like “idiots” making profit off their work. It is talking about the programmers…they _do_ want more botters if they are selling their illicit program. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/635 "2018-01-21T10:36:57Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > You are basically creating penicillin…and the bots are like a bacteria. Do we want to end up with the MRSA form of bots? Penicilin works, if used correctly. Resistant forms are ONLY a possible result of someone not completing the antibiotic regimen. To use this analogy, CCP implementing bot prevention would kill the majority of the bot pathogen, leaving only the resistant/advanced forms, thus reducing strain on the EVE organism and allowing for subsequent focus on the remainder of those immune pathogen botters. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/636 "2018-01-21T10:38:07Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > I am not saying this. I am just saying that there is no magic bullet here. People always think this, then everything goes to ■■■■. Nobody has claimed it prevents all botting, in all perpetuity. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/637 "2018-01-21T10:40:44Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > It is talking about the programmers…they do want more botters if they are selling their illicit program. How many botters do you think will pay for that? CCP can also track instances of people trying to sell programs/setups. In anycase, the arms race, as you term it, is ongoing and eternal between botters and developers. That is not a reason to act constantly to prevent the most simple bots that CAN be prevented. Your logic seems to be “If we hurt botters, we only make them stronger”. Thats ridiculous. The whole purpose of the Security team is to defeat bots, by any means available. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/638 "2018-01-21T10:45:19Z")
When you use language like, “it will obliterate most of the bot population” it sure sounds like you think it will make a major and permanent dent in the bot population…with a static one time fix. Not going to happen. Sure you might wipe out most bots for awhile, but then the programmers will solve that problem and the bot problem will grow again…and keep on growing. No you either adapt your captcha so where even people can’t read it, or you use a different strategy. And if all we have left are the more talented programmers making bots… > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > How many botters do you think will pay for that? Well considering how much PLEX costs and how many people buy them…you might be surprised. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > In anycase, the arms race, as you term it, is ongoing and eternal between botters and developers. My reference to arms race was in regards to captcha…you either keep making the captcha harder and harder for a program to read…and for a human to read…or you move to another strategy. Why annoy players and instead just cut straight away to the other strategy? > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > That is not a reason to act constantly to prevent the most simple bots that CAN be prevented. For a period of time. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Your logic seems to be “If we hurt botters, we only make them stronger”. > > Thats ridiculous. You have already agreed to this…why is it ridiculous. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > The whole purpose of the Security team is to defeat bots, by any means available. Please. We could permanently shut down the server, there all botters defeated forever. We don’t want to use any means as some are extreme and silly. We want an effect means to keep the botting population in check. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/639 "2018-01-21T10:47:03Z")
BTW, the notion of PLEX is a fantastic anti-bot measure that does not result in an arms race. That kind of solution should be preferred. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/640 "2018-01-21T10:51:41Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > “it will obliterate most of the bot population” it sure sounds like you think it will make a major and permanent dent in the bot population…with a static one time fix. As I said above. Nobody claims a one-time fix is going to remove all bots, in all perpetuity. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > And if all we have left are the more talented programmers making bots… And so what? You are confusing the consumers with the bot developers. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Well considering how much PLEX costs and how many people buy them…you might be surprised. It might be. But I doubt it. Perhaps you will be the one surprised. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > My reference to arms race was in regards to captcha…you either keep making the captcha harder and harder for a program to read… You assume that the only solution in future will be a more complex captcha. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > For a period of time. The battle goes on at every period of time. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > You have already agreed to this…why is it ridiculous. I have not agreed to this. Your logic is akin to a police force choosing not to crack down on X gang, cos that might mean X gang will come back later with bigger guns. This is not a case of “better the devil we know”. Bots are to be prevented/mitigated at every opportunity. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > We could permanently shut down the server, there all botters defeated forever. Nice argumentum ad absurdum. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/641 "2018-01-21T10:52:32Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > BTW, the notion of PLEX is a fantastic anti-bot measure that does not result in an arms race. Explain. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/642 "2018-01-21T10:56:03Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Your logic is akin to a police force choosing not to crack down on X gang, cos that might mean X gang will come back later with bigger guns. The problem with your thinking is that the police force in your idea aren’t cracking down on a gang. They are putting in mandatory checklpoints everywhere in the city where every single person has to undergo an ID check on their way to work, on their way to the supermarket, on their way to the bar, on their way to the sports game… Simply to try and crack down on X gang who will be back later with bigger guns assuming they even get caught in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/643 "2018-01-21T10:57:15Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > They are putting in mandatory checklpoints everywhere in the city where every single person has to undergo an ID check on their way to work, on their way to the supermarket, on their way to the bar, on their way to the sports game… Sounds effective to me. Are you trying to argue CCP should not take action to prevent rudimentary bots? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 10:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/644 "2018-01-21T10:58:15Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Sounds effective to me. > > Are you trying to argue CCP should not take action to prevent rudimentary bots? No, I’m saying they shouldn’t become a police state and turn away a whole lot of their actual customers with check points everywhere simply to take an action that has been proven ineffective against bots years & years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/645 "2018-01-21T11:00:07Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > And so what? You are confusing the consumers with the bot developers. No, I’m saying if all you have left are talented bot programmers then you’ll end up with future generations of bots being better…and possibly worse for the game. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You assume that the only solution in future will be a more complex captcha. Captcha suck. And it is will be quite tempting to make the captcha more complex vs. looking for a good solution like we got with PLEX. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > I have not agreed to this. Yeah, you have. You agree bots change over time. That is the most simple definition of evolution. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Your logic is akin to a police force choosing not to crack down on X gang, cos that might mean X gang will come back later with bigger guns. I have already said that this is not what I’m suggesting. I am suggesting not going down a path that won’t give you the results you are looking for for long and could end up harming the game. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Nice argumentum ad absurdum. “By any and all means” is the absurd position here. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Explain. It provides a legal way to get ISK thus reducing the demand for bots among the player base. It also reduces the demand for RMT ISK which also reduces the demand for bots. And there is not much in terms of programming that can be done to combat it. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Sounds effective to me. > > Are you trying to argue CCP should not take action to prevent rudimentary bots? It will also piss off every player who is not using a bot. Who wants to log in and play Captcha Online? Nobody. It is intellectually lazy game design, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/646 "2018-01-21T11:01:30Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > No, I’m saying they shouldn’t become a police state and turn away a whole lot of their actual customers with check points everywhere simply to take an action that has been proven ineffective against bots years & years ago. A couple extra clicks isnt going to turn actual customers away, especially if they know its helping prevent bots. Most bots in EVE currently would not be able to deal with a simple captcha. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/647 "2018-01-21T11:07:38Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > No, I’m saying if all you have left are talented bot programmers then you’ll end up with future generations of bots being better…and possibly worse for the game. There wont be any more or less talented bot programmers left. If they could run better bots, they would be doing so already, anyways. This is not an argument. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Captcha suck Bots suck more. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > You agree bots change over time. That is the most simple definition of evolution. There is a distinction between bots and botters. That rudimentary bots are prevented does not mean those botters will have access or understanding of how to use the next generation of more complicated bots. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > I am suggesting not going down a path that won’t give you the results you are looking for for long and could end up harming the game. You cant prove that either way. Its not rational to state that preventing bots would “harm the game” Bots harm the game, not preventing them. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > “By any and all means” is the absurd position here. Which you took to an absurd extreme. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > It provides a legal way to get ISK thus reducing the demand for bots among the player base. It also reduces the demand for RMT ISK which also reduces the demand for bots. Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > It will also piss off every player who is not using a bot. False. It wont piss me off, and I’m a player. Others here have also said the same. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/648 "2018-01-21T11:18:10Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > There wont be any more or less talented bot programmers left. > > If they could run better bots, they would be doing so already, anyways. > > This is not an argument. 🙄 > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > There is a distinction between bots and botters. That rudimentary bots are prevented does not mean those botters will have access or understanding of how to use the next generation of more complicated bots. Except those that do. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You cant prove that either way. > Its not rational to state that preventing bots would “harm the game” > Bots harm the game, not preventing them. Evolutionary processes work just like this though and there are plenty of examples. And FFS stop being deliberately obtuse I am not saying “don’t prevent botting” I’m saying don’t be lazy about it. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Which you took to an absurd extreme. Because your position was absurd, glad we cleared that up. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently. I just did. Without PLEX we’d get more bots. Look, go for the lazy sloppy way of addressing the bot issue that, in the end, won’t provide a lasting benefit. Or…look for a solution similar to PLEX which can provide a lasting benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Salvos\_Rhoska](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salvos_rhoska/32/14128_2.png) [@Salvos\_Rhoska](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salvos_Rhoska)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/649 "2018-01-21T11:24:30Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Except those that do. That number will neither increase nor decrease. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Evolutionary processes work just like this though and there are plenty of examples. This is like Trudeau para-phrased saying “If we kill them, they win”. The arms race between CCP and bots is ongoing. That doesn not mean CCP shouldnt take action to prevent bots. CCP evolves, bots evolve, CCP evolves etc. You have a patently silly understanding of evolution. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Because your position was absurd, glad we cleared that up. You proposed shutting down the servers to prevent botting. If that wasnt absurd, I dont know what is. > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > I just did. Without PLEX we’d get more bots. Re-read the question: **Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently.** > [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > Or…look for a solution similar to PLEX which can provide a lasting benefit. Offer such a solution then. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/650 "2018-01-21T11:36:08Z")
> [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > That number will neither increase nor decrease. They don’t have too because all they have to do is make their botting program available to those who want to bot. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > This is like Trudeau para-phrased saying “If we kill them, they win”. No, it is like saying, “If we kill some of them this way, in the end they’ll become stronger and then they could win.” > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > You proposed shutting down the servers to prevent botting. > If that wasnt absurd, I dont know what is. Please, don’t lose sight of the fact that it was you making the absurd statement of “by any means necessary” which automatically includes the absurd solutions like the one I noted. I was not advocating that solution, but pointing out the absurdity of your position since it included absurd solutions. It is literally the zero tolerance approach which is just foolish in the extreme. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently. I did. If PLEX were removed the number of bots would go up in short order. So PLEX is currently reducing the number of bots. > [@Salvos\_Rhoska](#): > > Offer such a solution then. Oh yes, it is just that easy. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Aischa\_Montagne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aischa_montagne/32/50350_2.png) [@Aischa\_Montagne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aischa_Montagne)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538/651 "2018-01-21T11:44:27Z")
I disagree with you. which market pries are out of range, Eve wide? I say the system can sustain a certain persentage of bots. And I say Eves capsuleer can deal with bots if some changes are made. Since these are mainly habits, I do not see the issue. You can Change it, by not selling on Stations. Instead use Citadells. Prepare attacks on citadells with a bot core. You will see bots will go away if it is work to keep them running. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=31) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/eve-bots-are-they-a-bad-thing-is-ccp-complicit-in-their-use/34538.md?page=33)